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*** WARNING ***
This post includes language and themes that may not be appropriate for children (or adults). Reader discretion is advised.
People often do not acknowledge how their personal experiences help shape their beliefs.
Over the last few weeks, I’ve posted a number of articles and comments on Sharkly who believes that men are superior to women and that only men are made in the image of God. Sharkly had a disastrous marriage and continues to suffer the effects of its demise. He calls women “natural defilers.” It takes very little to be convinced that his opinions of women are clouded by his negative experiences.
Over on Spawny’s Space, Deti is continuing his rapid slide into apostasy.
First: It’s every man for himself out here. At the end of the day, you are completely and totally alone. No one else gives a shit about you – not even your parents, your siblings, and certainly not your wife or LTR. If you want anything you have to get it for yourself. If you need anything you have to get it by any means necessary. No one will give you anything. No one owes you anything – not even understanding.
Second: Forget about marriage. Marriage is dead. Even the Christomanosphere cannot get you what you want. The Christomanosphere’s version of Red Pill works only with women of character, and since there are almost no women of character anywhere, even in Christianity, marriage is dead – including Christian marriage. Do not get married, ever, at all. [..] The fact that you have a Christian marriage means exactly nothing now.
Fifth: Most of the men who found their way to what became the manosphere (which is now more or less dead) are men who 1) always had problems with socialization because they’re somewhere on the spectrum; or 2) attract women but not the ones they want because they’re just not all that attractive to begin with.
Sixth : All bets are off now. The gloves have to come off. No more Mr. Nice Guy. You must become ruthless with yourselves and with others. Men need to set their squeamishness and moral issues aside. Women don’t have those issues; so men shouldn’t either. Do not marry. Do not father children. Marriage and fatherhood are off the table for most men, so you must take them off the table for any women you deal with. If you’re married, divorce must always be an available option.
If a woman expresses sexual interest, close the deal. Document your interactions with her. Keep every text message, email, and photo. Don’t commit. Give women nothing. Accept what she’ll give you and enjoy it while it lasts, because it will come to an end. When it does end, let them go without another word and never contact them ever again.
I’m going to do what I can for me and mine in my sphere of influence. Fuck western civ. Fuck the culture. Fuck the church. I’m not going to try to save them. All I can do is save myself and mine, while trying not to get chewed up in the process, and if I do get chewed up, so be it.
— comments by thedeti @ “Sabatoge”
It is rather plain that Deti was destroyed by the woman/women in his life, hit peak despair, accepted it as inevitable, and weaponized it. His decline is worth a closer look.
Every Man For Himself
First: It’s every man for himself out here. At the end of the day, you are completely and totally alone. No one else gives a shit about you – not even your parents, your siblings, and certainly not your wife or LTR. If you want anything you have to get it for yourself. If you need anything you have to get it by any means necessary. No one will give you anything. No one owes you anything – not even understanding.
Deti is truly in a bad place. Look, I’m big on personal responsibility. I think that if one holds to Patriarchy, respect dictates that they take everything onto themselves. I told Sharkly as much:
Patriarchy is the claim that each man has inherent authority as given by God himself. When you assign responsibility for a man’s legitimate use of authority to another (e.g. his ex-wife), then you show contempt for his authority for his choice to bed her in the first place. This is why if a wife divorces her husband, 1 Timothy 3:4-5 holds him accountable and forbids him from being an overseer of the church. It’s not victim blaming, it is respect for his authority and a refusal to assign his personal responsibility to his wife. This is one reason why, during the marriage ceremony, the audience is told to “speak now or forever hold your peace.”
…and…
My objection to modern patriarchy is the insistence that a man should be in charge of everything, but isn’t responsible for anything bad that happens under and within his domain. It’s disrespectful and not at all biblical.
So Deti is seemingly correct that responsibility falls on your shoulders as a man, but he is wrong that every man is alone. Deti has take the Black Pill and has despaired. Like Sharkly, the authority that they claim comes from God brings them no joy, no comfort, no rest, no unity. They see only suffering. When they see what appears to be success in others, they treat it like a fraud that has yet to be exposed.
This is not how the Bible describes suffering:
1 Peter 4:12-20 (REV)
Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that is occurring among you to tempt you, as though something strange were happening to you. On the contrary, rejoice in so far as you are sharing in the sufferings of Christ, so that when his glory is revealed you will rejoice and be exceedingly glad. If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the spirit of glory, that is, the spirit of God, rests on you. However, none of you should suffer as a murderer, or a thief, or an evildoer, or as a meddler in other people’s matters; but if any of you suffers for being a Christian, he should not be ashamed but should glorify God in bearing that name. For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God, and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the good news of God? And if the righteous person is saved while going through difficulty, what about the ungodly person and sinner—where will they appear? So then, let those who suffer according to the will of God entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while continuing to do what is good.
The contrast between the Apostle Peter—who tradition claims was crucified upside down—and Deti in response to suffering is stark.
Marriage is Dead
Second: Forget about marriage. Marriage is dead. Even the Christomanosphere cannot get you what you want. The Christomanosphere’s version of Red Pill works only with women of character, and since there are almost no women of character anywhere, even in Christianity, marriage is dead – including Christian marriage. Do not get married, ever, at all. [..] The fact that you have a Christian marriage means exactly nothing now.
I agree that the Manosphere cannot get you a marriage. Many of the reasons for the failure of the Manosphere are to be found on this very site. The Manosphere does not offer truth to its adherents. The “Red Pill” was never more than yet another pseudo-religious term-of-art that cannot hold a candle to the Word of God.
Genesis 2:24 (KJV)
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
But marriage is not dead, nor will it ever be dead. So long as men and women cleave together, they will be one flesh. Marriage is happening, and we do our best to support it.
The Manosphere is Dead
Fifth: Most of the men who found their way to what became the manosphere (which is now more or less dead) are men who 1) always had problems with socialization because they’re somewhere on the spectrum; or 2) attract women but not the ones they want because they’re just not all that attractive to begin with.
People outside the Manosphere have long noted that it would be stupid to find marital advice by people who were bad at it, but that’s a good characterization of the Manosphere. Don’t take take marital advice from divorced people. Even the Bible says that if you are divorced, it disqualifies you from teaching in the church:
1 Timothy 3:2-5 (NIV)
Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?)
Deti’s obsession with attractiveness hides the fact that marriage success isn’t a function of good looks and never has been. In the late 4th century, John Chrysostom wrote that men having the most attractive wives was not enough. Very little has changed!
Divorce is an Option
Sixth : All bets are off now. The gloves have to come off. No more Mr. Nice Guy. You must become ruthless with yourselves and with others. Men need to set their squeamishness and moral issues aside. Women don’t have those issues; so men shouldn’t either. Do not marry. Do not father children. Marriage and fatherhood are off the table for most men, so you must take them off the table for any women you deal with. If you’re married, divorce must always be an available option.
This is why we don’t let people with raging emotions determine our behavior. Jesus and Paul condemned divorce. Paul went as far as to say that even if a wife divorces her husband, he was merely relieved of marital responsibilities but could not divorce her (they were still married in God’s eyes!). Deti’s advice is a blatantly advocating sin. Do not listen to him! Do not set aside moral issues!
Jesus’ disciples were so upset by the ban on divorce that they concluded that it was better not to marry at all. Deti sounds like one of the disciples.
Be Paranoid
If a woman expresses sexual interest, close the deal. Document your interactions with her. Keep every text message, email, and photo. Don’t commit. Give women nothing. Accept what she’ll give you and enjoy it while it lasts, because it will come to an end. When it does end, let them go without another word and never contact them ever again.
Do not engage in sexual immorality. You get one wife until death, and divorce cannot separate you. If you lose your wife to anything except death, you must remain celibate.
Embrace Despair
I’m going to do what I can for me and mine in my sphere of influence. Fuck western civ. Fuck the culture. Fuck the church. I’m not going to try to save them. All I can do is save myself and mine, while trying not to get chewed up in the process, and if I do get chewed up, so be it.
Do not despair. Rejoice and be glad. Entrust your soul to the faithful Creator and do good.
As someone who is “blackpilled” and has been accused of being unfashionably negative on other places. Banned from two. I noticed the “smear” was laid upon me mostly when I disagreed with them. I was suddenly “bitter and angry”
The reality is that, fully admit….I am a bit vaguely discontented. That ol’ Johnny Mathis song “when sunny gets blue” does fit me a bit, though it was about a woman. Whatever. Like any other social structer……the people in charge of it dont like anyone to challenge them. Not just when they could be wrong. But on anything. I also noticed something I said where shot to pieces by the whole crew. Years later, when *they* say it, it suddenly is agreed and accepted as “truth”
In the end I got tired. I wanted to be convinced. All I became was more sad, and blue. Time to leave, and Im not missed. Nor should I be.
As for this post. If you are a believing Christian and practicing, The only thing I can see is that his humility is very damaged or destroyed. Some of that is from hanging out in the man-o-sphere. Christian or not.
Again, when Jesus restores Peter in the Gospel of John, Jesus does his gentle but loving rebuke three times over breakfast with the others who were present. Then, Peter says to Jesus “What about him?” referring to John. Peter ‘s Ego is still a bit damaged, and Peter now thinks Jesus is going to give them all the same rebuke for running away. Jesus gives an answer that is a little curt and a bit cold to Peter. He holds Peter accountable. Jesus I would believe in that reply to Peter is “Hey, I was talking to you. You are a leader. More is expected from you, dont worry about John. Focus on feeding my sheep!”
A man like Deti IS a leader. He is way more accomplished, worldly and smarter than I will ever be. At times on the forums…I was a tad envious of how easily he could write, quote, and have the solid reply to end or close a discussion. He is a Christian, in his position in career, education, intellect and generating IOI’s from women and “respect” from fellow men in court or in public
More is expected of him. In Christianity I noticed every Christian does indeed have a cross to bear, though most will never admit it “Jesus is in my heart, I rejoice in suffering!” is a polite lie Christians tell each other. In the ‘sphere, admitting anything that might show weakness or indeed the burden of the cross is scoffed “You dont believe / trust enough” and of course, when you are trusting or striving for that belief “you’re doing it wrong”
I was accused of horrible things at times there. Untrue things. The sphere has become an echo chamber and a club, and you had better subscribe to all there man made rules, protocols and subscribe to every doctrine and maxim or “you’re out”. The Pharaisees are alive and well there.
Anyway….I hope whatever these men are going through they can with their God, and Savior get through it. I would offer to help, or listen….but you know, I am not needed in their faith or system or sphere.
In that you are incorrect. I missed your conversation and insight for a long time.
”It is rather plain that Deti was destroyed by the woman/women in his life”
He and his wife have been in a marital warzone since the mid-’90s(6 months after they married as Deti always tells it) and it only got worse as time went that’s all.
”Don’t take marital advice from divorced people. Even the Bible says that if you are divorced, it disqualifies you from teaching in the church:’
i have believed that ever since too many angry married ex-married men got into the ‘sphere @Dalrock in ’12 and ’13, then later they wondered ”where did all these ”blackpiller” young men come from?”
They listened to too many depressed married and divorced men’s tales of how marriage and even dating is a daily war that you’ll regret ever getting into.
“I’m not missed”
You haven’t noticed how even more depressed sf seems without you now, MOD?
It’s been a while, but wasn’t it Deti who chased off Lastmod, Elspeth, Liz, and probably a few others?
Deto didnt chase me off…….I disagreed a few times with him, and we did openly argue once, or twice on SF. I disagree that “men must have sex like air / water / food, or you’re a lesser man”
As compared to what? A man who is? I just found the whole topic at that time an excuse “God gave you a sex drive and its okay to use it, but if you are woman you should sit in shame for the rest of your life and be reminded daily of your terrible choice”
Nevermind many of the men in SF and the sphere in general (secular and sacred) helped contribute to a womans N count and then pass off their behavior and make it all the womans fault.
At the same time, they follow “game” which blantly states over and over again: women cannot help themselves / attraction to women isnt a choice
Women have no agency, ever, they cannot help themselves…..except….when it matters to fit their version of scripture.
I found Deti overall okay, I couldnt relate to him. He’s a better man than I will ever be, so maybe thats why he didnt bother me too much. I knew I could never match / compete or even be considered a brother….even when I was a christian.
Because of his status in the world, and his talents and gifts, and looks, and life……
More is expected of him. That’s all
What “chased” me off the SF blog……and its for the better of all of them actually…….were pretty much three things.
The incessant knit-picking by a frequent commenter there. I could say “the sky is blue” and he would dissect it into “what do you mean the sky is blue, the actual facts are it isnt / answer my questions ” and this commenter also treated me very roughly even when I was in actively in the faith. He hates most people and is miserable. I got tired of feeling that way on a supposed “christian blog” the “loves and wants to help men”. Many of the other travelers there never corrected him. In the real world, silence means and can be construed as “agreement”
Second, the blog is made for christian men who are successful with women and who are in a class way above me. The charts, the complex terms, the psychology, the rules, the maxims, the “laws” the rules. I didnt have time to dissect and practice and study each post, neither do most men. In realtion to this, all these carved-in-stone rules and behaviors……none of them applied them when they got a wife or dates. Meant for “thee” but not for “me” smugness was widespread there. They just fell out of the womb and the nurses in the hospital were giving them IOI’s.
When I had a heartwrenching situation during and after a DJ gig in LA (Los Globos on Sunset) that hurt. What was the encourgement? The suggestions? Oh, I should have busted out my oratory skills like Ovid and lectured them on “frame” and the like. In a nightclub with fellow DJs……and cut them out if they dont agree with you……..in a nightclub, mind you. Loud music, packed, poeple high on cocaine (cocaine still is a bad rash in that scene sadly). They think the world is a college lecture hall or they are in the military and the underlings are going to listen to you. The help and replies were smug in nature. I told Jack to “f*ck off” in a reply, and it wasnt posted (nor should it have been) and have not posted since.
Lastly, I realized I didnt need them…nor they needed me. I was actually wasting peoples time there. It was just time to go.
I have no hate for them, I do regret the “f*ck off” reply to Jack if truth be told. If he ever demanded an apology from me if we met, he would get one. Everything that has to be said about “modern women” and “dating” and “Game” and “Frame” (game 10.5 or whaterver) and hypergamy has been said.
As for the christian nature of it, its too advanced for most AVERAGE intelligent men. I was so lost on so many of the convos there about Scripture. Its a not a faith for most people regretfully.
Thats about it. I’ve been okay. Work is fine. LA is okay. Car is paid off (two years early) and Im planning a trip to Egypt to see the ruins. I have to go to a wedding in Wales, UK in May 2024.
I remember being personally criticized because I failed to pile on you. I said that I found your insight to be more useful than much of what other people say. It has always irked me what happened.
It’s the therapy I don’t love. The site is too effeminate.
I’m glad to hear it. If you ever make it back to upstate NY again (especially in the summer), reach out to me over email if you want to try to meet up. I always regret not taking the chance to meet up after your brother, and our family likes to vacation in NY. And of course if you make it to Philadelphia, even better.
Liz was chased off by Sharkly. I suspect she might have been bothered that the rest of us didn’t stick up for her more.
IDK about Elspeth. She once said she mostly hung around to see how Scott and I were doing. Scott is gone I think and I’m focusing more on my faith and family.
I also enjoyed Jason’s presence and benefitted from his comments.
Cam,
I appreciate you clarifying that. It’s been a while and I couldn’t recall the details precisely.
Which is why I am so very lucky that he is still commenting here.
It’s nice to have you here as well. You are welcome to comment at any time.
Peace,
DR
So this is where everyone went…
I agree with deti on few things, but he’s a little too black and white on others. He tends to make the same point over and over. His position is well-known by now. You’re right that he is bitter, and I don’t really know what new material he adds.
Jason, I’m glad you’re here and commenting. I wondered where you went. Don’t let a couple jerks overshadow the many people who enjoy your company.
The manosphere failed because it lags behind society. It’s more a study than a movement. As women become more degenerate, we have no way of getting out in front of them and stopping it. Well, we do, but few want to because there’s no support. Until then, we’re just rearranging chairs on the Titanic.
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I probably shouldn’t respond, and thereby encourage your further trolling, but I will.
Derek, since you seemingly love to name & claim logical fallacies even when you lack the understanding to apply them correctly: For you to lump me in together with thedeti is an Ad Hominem (Guilt by Association) to associate me with somebody who advocates for sexual immorality.
I myself have taken the time to contended against thedeti for advocating sexual immorality almost every time I’ve encountered it. I also methodically contended against Scott’s unrepentantly glorying in his former sexual immorality.
Y’all are amateurs compared to me when it comes to sticking up for God’s rules for sexual purity and reminding self-professing believers of these capital offenses. I of all people shouldn’t be lumped in with somebody who advocates against male virginity and for sexual immorality.
Lastmod can tell you that I have tried to encourage him that his virginity is precious to God.
“Liz was chased off by Sharkly.”
Liz was bragging about how her son had eclipsed his father in sexual immorality. cameron232 himself even assessed that she sounded like a proud mama, bragging on her son. I corrected the defiler telling her to either quit glorifying sexual immorality or else to quit claiming to be a Christ follower and thereby tying the name of Jesus Christ to her family’s boasting in their sexual immorality. She gave an unsatisfactory excuse and I continued to press her towards renouncing her sin as publicly as she had first committed it.
I fully stand by what I wrote, by how I wrote it, and I stand prepared to do it all again if the situation arises again, where I feel it is needed again. It’s funny that Derek will even publish a whole post correcting thedeti on similar grounds, yet when I correct a woman, I must have gone too far. White Knight much?
——————————————————————–
“Don’t take take marital advice from divorced people. Even the Bible says that if you are divorced, it disqualifies you from teaching in the church:”
If you are trying to disqualify my ideas based upon who I am and what has transpired in my life, that is again, by definition, argumentum ad hominem.
Proverbs 26:7 Like the useless legs of one who is lame is a proverb in the mouth of a fool.
1 Timothy 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
Derek is lamely applying that to folks like me instead of himself. First off, egalitarian Derek doesn’t even like the word “rule” being used of a husband’s relationship to his wife. And he recently recorded his daughter as having intentionally thrown an eraser at his head. Which demonstrates how much gravity the clown commands within his own home. None of the Mennonite’s I descended from would have thought Derek anything more than a clown for letting his own children throw things at him. Anyhow, the point is he does not rule over his wife and children with any gravity.
God only holds people responsible for their words and actions and for doing things that are within their control. Hosea’s wife sold herself into harlotry and had children by other men, all the while he was loving her like God loved the nation Israel. Hosea did not cease to be God’s prophet based upon what happened in his home that was not of his own doing, even though it was atrocious. Hosea was doing exactly what was right. It was his “wife” that was constantly choosing other men over him. Jesus Christ didn’t have a wife and kids. The principle of ruling ones house well, doesn’t guarantee good results, especially not when you’ve married a whore, like Hosea.
Which brings me to Derek’s Feminist blaming of men for everything that happens to them in their marriage. Derek does the work of Satan, the accuser, in blaming and slandering the innocent party for the sins of the wicked against them. Derek couches his Satanic attack on men in terms of Patriarchy and respecting male headship and responsibility, but Derek’s teaching is nothing short of a satanic lie, to blame men for women’s evils which they have been empowered to do by our society. In times gone by men could have beaten their wives into submission and wives could not divorce their husbands, or threaten to, and certainly not for “no fault”. And perhaps in those times more of the blame for a disobedient wife could be assumed to be a husband’s negligence. But for Derek to keep blaming husbands for the wickedness of their wives when they’ve been stripped of their ability to force any compliance from their wives, is just Derek willingly taking on the yoke of Satan and plowing for Satan against those already defrauded husbands.
In my assessment: Derek worships and serves womankind above God, and he will lie and slander any man to sustain the queendom of his goddesses. He is clearly opposed to God’s holy patriarchy, and he has become a liar like his father the devil. May God show him the mercy to turn him from his wicked Feminist idolatry, and from the satanic lies he spews against innocent husbands and innocent divorced husbands.
I’d been posting at Spawny’s for many years (took 2 off for Mike’s last assignment).
I can’t remember when the incident in question happened…maybe two years ago now? Mom had died recently, we’d just emptied and sold the home, and our oldest son and his (then fiancé now wife) helped out with that.
Since I had established a very long relationship with the folks at Spawny’s (one I valued very much), years of communication led to an understanding of where I was coming from (yes, at times I used gallows humor also). The ents at Spawny’s who had been there as long as I knew that my sons are not “chads”. None of them had a single date before high school graduation. None of them went to prom.
After months of goading the Mike was a “chad” (guess who did that?) I posted about my oldest being “more of a chad” (essentially….honestly it has been too long for me to remember the exact exchange). Mike was never a “chad”. Nor are/were our sons. That was kind of the point, for folks who knew me at all.
The response (from Sharkly) was so over the top (I didn’t notice it at first), after reading it I considered for a while and determined that if Mike read it he would not want me to post there anymore. This was not an easy decision because I valued that interaction very much, and I value the people there.
So I lost something valuable to me when I felt compelled to leave.
It wasn’t just Sharkly, every interaction with Deti was terrible also.
I was never disrespectful to either Sharkly or Deti, but there were terrible to me.
It shouldn’t be hard to believe, if one juxtaposes our respective “communication styles”.
If I had an edit, I would say I had no issues with Sharkly before that post…I thought he was generally solid and funny, and I thought we got along well.
When Mike took his last assignment, he was an outsider. He knew nothing about maintenance but that base had, at the moment he took over, one of the worst maintenance records. He took over and turned it around to the gold standard where they used that model to try to improve maintenance everywhere else, and the maintainers were sent on TDYs all around the country to show them how to do it.
The reason I bring up that example…Mike always says, in management, “most problems are people problems”. Once good will is lost, it can be very very difficult (or impossible) to recover. Communication is one of the key factors in “people problem” equation.
Mike could have just asserted with monumental hubris that everyone else was inferior, cut his subordinates aggressively to the quick, and the environment and results would have reflected that leadership style.
Ahem. High IQ. Ahem.
I’m not saying you are wrong, in fact, you are almost certainly correct, but it remains that “normal” people demonstratively were unable to do what he did.
To the intelligent, such solutions are obvious and do not require any special intelligence at all to see or implement. But, it turns out, intelligent people are the ones that tend to find the ‘obvious’ solutions.
Intelligent people often mistake the source or direction of causation in such cases.
Derek,
You are of course right about the intelligence factor (when it comes to finding “obvious” solutions to large problems). When we were in school, there was a strengths of materials class project to design a cylinder out of a sheet of aluminum (with certain specifications). His design still holds the university record (for greatest amount of weight before it buckled) in the history of the aerospace engineering department. He came up with that design idea in about 5 minutes.
But often extremely high intelligence can lead to hubris in communication style. If Mike had communicated in a different way, the result would have been different. The way one conveys a message can determine the way it is received, which can determine the outcome.
Liz, I think we still can get along fine. I do not dislike you. Just be aware of my character, and that I expect more from people who claim the name of Jesus Christ. I’ve already said what I intended to. Learn from it what you will, or don’t. I really have no intention to keep that particular disagreement going. Don’t feel like you can’t hang out there with your friends.
I can’t speak for thedeti, but there too, I don’t begrudge the man his feelings, I can certainly relate to some of it. However, I suspect I get a lot better treatment from women than many men in the Christian Manosphere get. My mom and my wife were both horrible to me, but most other women aren’t like that towards me. So I don’t deal with the same level of constant “soul-grating” disrespect from women that many men report and have undoubtedly been affected by. Furthermore, my ego may be more robust and resilient.
I can’t guarantee your safety anywhere on the internet. Nor will I White Knight for you if others attack you. But, I try to stick up for what is right on moral and doctrinal issues. All I can guarantee is my own behavior. I currently have no reason for conflict with you, but if you give me one, I’m not afraid of conflict, and I don’t give women a “pussy pass”. In fact, I’ve been trying to deprogram myself from our woman-worshipping society, and, if anything, I now try to err on the side of giving men the first benefit of the doubt in any male-female disagreement.
Anyhow, I’ll reiterate, that you don’t need to stay away from Spawny’s Space for my sake, I can take care of myself. And, even when you left, I already considered the matter to be over. If you’re careful not to appear to glorify sexual immorality, the issue shouldn’t come up again, unless somebody else brings it up. But, I’ll contend for righteousness as long as I live, so just bear that in mind.
I appreciate the considered response, Sharkly.
It’s best for me to stay off the internet these days, since it is addictive to me.
Take care, I wish you well also.
It is my opinion you and Deti are examples of being shaped by personal experiences. Do you deny that your experiences have driven your theological views? Did you develop your positions on the image of God before or after your experience with your wife?
I can honestly say that you’ve never advocated sexual immorality, except—arguably—regarding your views on remarriage. Consequently, there is no legitimate cause to compare the two of you on those grounds. If you read what I wrote carefully, I did not do so.
I can understand why you wouldn’t want to be associated with Deti, but then again, why do you frequent the same forums if being around him is abhorrent? Find a forum, like this one, where he does not (presently) comment.
Why you would think this is guilt by association is beyond my comprehension. Are you trying to one-up me? What’s the point of that?
When I correct a man, it is more-or-less man-to-man. When you trying to correct—by way of purported divine command—another man’s wife, you overstep your bounds.
You might as well admit that you think Christian patriarchy is wrong because it lets men manage their wives in a way that you don’t think is right. I will say this again and again and again: if you think a man has authority over his own domain, then intruding on another man’s domain is wrong. For example, what gives you the right to disrespect me by intruding on how I manage my family?
The Bible disqualifies a divorced man from being a teacher in the church. Paul explains his reasoning, and it has nothing to do with ad hominem. Indeed, his reasoning directly pertains to his argument, so it can’t be ad hominem by definition.
It’s not a matter of liking it or not. It’s what the Bible says. As for the master of the house in 1 Timothy, I wrote about that here.
After I read your words, I decided that I would take your admonition to Man-Up!™ and insist that my daughter call me “Sir!” moving forward. So I headed to her room. As I opened her door, she looks up at me and says, “Yes sir?” Well played, daughter, well played.
My whole family (myself, my wife, and my kids) respects me and, of them, those who saw what you wrote think you are crazy for what you just said. The only one who thinks I’m a clown is you, and your opinion holds no weight in my family.
Ya’all talk about authority almost incessantly, but ya’all don’t really understand it. In my house we have both harmony and gravity. Your worldview and your simplistic view of authority prevent you from seeing that.
Patriarchy—male rule—is feminist now? I’ll remember that for later.
Why was Christ punished for the sins of his bride? He was the innocent party, was he not? Was he wrong to take the blame through his agency—by his own authority—for the sins of his bride, to put the debt on his account?
I don’t accuse you of the sins of others, rather I treat you with dignity and respect as a patriarch in authority over your own domain, as Christ did for his bride. If you’d like me to stop treating you as if you were a Christian patriarch, I will stop, but only at your request.
If you think your authority is dependent on what a woman or government tells you, then the master you serve is clear. That you think feminists are my rulers is just the most ironic thing you could say.
I worship and serve God. Any authority I have is God-given and not dependent on the opinion, laws, or behavior of anyone else. No man, woman, or child can take that away from me, regardless of their mocking claims to the contrary. Any man who derives his authority from someone other than God has chosen a different master than God.
“God’s Holy Patriarchy” is a loaded term that involves a vast number of non-biblical concepts. I reject non-biblical concepts. If that makes me a feminist, then logically that would make the Bible feminist. So pick one or the other and stick with it.
Being aroud thedeti isn’t abhorent. He actually makes a lot of good points and does so boldly. I just disagree with him on a few things, such as when he advocates sexual immorality. I don’t mind hashing things out together with people who are trying to reach a common goal. You, Derek, however have made it clear that you think the Christian Manosphere is headed in the wrong direction by leaving the Christo-Feminist churchian plantation. So, you’ve basically proclaimed yourself to be my ideological enemy. Trying to turn people from being red-pilled (seeing the truth) in the Christian Manosphere, back into the deception of the Great Whore. You even oppose God’s holy order of patriarchy.
Just because the Bible uses and advocates ad hominem evaluation as a way to filter your church leaders, and therefore the teaching, does not make the Bible wrong or illogical. I’ve tried to point out to you before that naming & claiming the names of things men have categorized and listed as being “logical fallacies” does not make things untrue, if they are true. You still seem to think that by throwing around those terms you somehow make yourself right even when you’re wrong.
“You might as well admit that you think Christian patriarchy is wrong because it lets men manage their wives in a way that you don’t think is right. I will say this again and again and again: if you think a man has authority over his own domain, then intruding on another man’s domain is wrong. For example, what gives you the right to disrespect me by intruding on how I manage my family?”
You misunderstand how God’s holy patriarchy integrates into a godly patriarchal society. 1 Corinthians 11:3 gives the general chain of command. God the Father’s law presides over all. Jesus did not come to abolish it, but to do it. I’ve disagreed with thedeti on this also, that men do not have the delegated authority to command their wives to defy God’s (Noahic) laws which applies to all people, nor to disobey Jesus Christ. If a man tells his wife to get an abortion, I and every other living soul have a right to condemn his action. The same thing goes if a man tells his wife to defy God’s command to cover her head when she prays. I have every right to condemn that wickedness.
Furthermore, in a patriarchal society, when your wife or children are out interacting with me, it is my duty to try to turn them to righteousness, when I witness them doing unrighteousness, and to uphold good morality. While it is better if a husband or parent can correct their own, society as a whole has to uphold and enforce good morality. Establishing a system for dealing out and upholding justice is part of the Noahic law. However not everything needs to go to court or go before the elders of a city. Most correction can be meted out on the spot by other good citizens. And man to man I am able to state my belief and call you to repentance, if I think you’re violating the commands of God. God’s holy patriarchy does not preclude a man from ever being advised or criticized. Your own prerogative as a patriarch only extends to deciding those things which are outside of what God the Father and the Word of God have already clearly prescribed. e.g. thedeti doesn’t get to decide it’s OK for his wife to rob a bank, when God’s law forbids theft. I have every right to stop thedeti, his wife , or his children, if I see any of them stealing.
Anyhow I think you already knew that but were just arguing to oppose God’s holy order of patriarchy.
Jesus Christ does not bear the blame for any sin. The Bible maintains His innocence. Nor was He obligated to sacrifice Himself for anybody’s sin. And it is another ball of wax that I don’t care to delve into, as to how or whether atonement is limited.
I think we’ve already disagreed on the definition of the word “authority”.
Authority: The power to enforce laws, exact obedience, command, determine, or judge.
Authority: The power or right to control, judge, or prohibit the actions of others.
It doesn’t. You are mistaken.
I never once said the Bible was wrong or illogical. You brought up the argumentum ad hominem and then misapplied it as a logical fallacy to me and the Bible. It’s quite rich that you are blaming me for your misapplication.
How dare you project your beliefs onto me! I have done nothing of the sort, in fact I explicitly hold no emnity towards you. Despite your errors of argument—which are not sin—I do not judge you. I welcome you here with open arms.
By refusing to show me mercy, you are declaring me to be your enemy, but you don’t even have the courage to own your own belief. You call yourself a patriarchal man, but this refusal to take your own agency is utterly cowardly, as is your whole wannabe patriarchal shtick. You unveil yourself.
I have not proven my points. Your own argument is self-defeating, but that doesn’t prove my position. We’ve barely even discussed what I believe, though you have hardly stopped condemning me for whatever it is! You believe that my disagreement with you endangers my very soul, because you want to force your belief on myself and my family. I do nothing of the sort, and your claim that I do is nothing but projection.
You constantly claim that I don’t know what a logical fallacy is and that I misapply them, but you don’t even know that when you commit a logical fallacy it only affects your argument, not mine. I could not possibly have proven my point simply by disproving yours.
You keep throwing out these claims—Feminist! Worker of Satan! Enemy!—but none of these stick because they are all ridiculous caricatures. What are you trying to prove?
These are all examples where you are condemning a man. In previous comments, I have said you violated the standards of patriarchy by condemning another man’s wife.
In old America, you’d probably have faced a duel. If you were in a Middle Eastern patriarchal society and you touched another man’s women, you’d be struck down where you stood. You’re either lucky you don’t live in those societies, or this is false bravado. When next you go to the Middle East, let me know how this works out for you (if you survive).
You continually disrespect a man’s patriarchal rights while claiming to support patriarchy. I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who disrespects patriarchy more than you do. Meanwhile, when I defend the core principles of patriarchy, you call me a feminist. I can’t make this stuff up.
You do not. In most jurisdictions in America the citizen’s arrest is explicitly illegal and you will likely get yourself arrested if you try. You already know what would happen if you did this in a patriarchal society.
God himself says “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.”
This is not a minor issue.
…and…
It directly pertains to the concept of patriarchy. Since patriarchy is an inference and not directly/imperatively commanded by the Bible, that inference is only as good as the patriarchy shown by Jesus.
You can quote a dictionary, but your criticism of my family shows that you don’t understand what authority is.
Tell me, do you get your authority from God or from women and government?
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