On Divorce

God doesn’t like divorce, so don’t ever do it.

For many years I have sat back and not weighed in on whether divorce or remarriage is ever correct. Interpreting the so-called “exception clause” given by Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew is not a trivial matter. Nonetheless, in response to a comment by RICannuck, I’ve finally broken with tradition to share my best understanding of the teaching of the Bible on divorce.

The Biblical Teachings

Paul taught, in 1 Corinthians 7:10-11, that a Christian husband must not divorce his wife, even if she leaves. Christian men are not permitted to divorce. Divorced Christian wives must remain unmarried or reconcile. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7:12 that only an unbeliever would divorce.

Of Christian wives, Paul reiterated what Jesus taught in Matthew 5:31-32: a divorced woman must remain unmarried, for to remarry is adultery. Jesus gave an “exception” for sexual immorality here, but in the parallel passage of Luke 16:18, he did not.

As in Luke, when Jesus taught on divorce in Mark 10:2-12, he also gave no exception, but stated that:

What God has joined together, let no one separate.

As in Matthew and Luke, he also stated that remarriage is adultery.

Jesus, in Matthew 19:3-12, says that—due to sexual immorality—not all remarriage is adultery. Nevertheless, as in Mark, Jesus gave the unqualified statement that no man has the authority to terminate a marriage:

What God has joined together, let no one separate.

To do so is an affront to the authority of God, even when remarriage isn’t adultery under a Pharisaic technical argument.

Does God Approve Of Divorce?

Malachi 2:16 states that God hates divorce. How, then, could God approve of the very thing he hates? This makes no sense. Never in scripture has God ever approved of divorce. Not even once. Mosaic Law does not approve of divorce in any circumstance, but it does provide legal protection for the wife if her husband divorces her.

Mosaic Law did not approve of divorce, but rather provided for the aggrieved ex-wives of hard-hearted husbands who violated God’s law in Genesis 2:23-24. God’s law cannot accommodate sin, but it can provide an accommodation for the consequences of sin. Thus a divorce certificate protects a wife after her hard-hearted husband divorces her, allowing her to remarry. The husband reneged on his covenantal marital responsibility, giving her some remedy (see: Exodus 21:10-11). But no Christian man has a right to renege on his marital covenant: the Law does not abrogate the man’s responsibility to the marriage. And so, no Christian man may divorce and a divorced woman should remain unmarried or reconcile. Thus Paul, Jesus, and Mosaic law are in agreement.

Why didn’t Paul and Mark allow an exception for sexual immorality? Was this exception implied and on what basis can someone make this claim? We have good reason to believe that Matthew’s account was not even written until long after Paul wrote to the Corinthians, and Paul gave no exception. Neither Mosaic Law, Jesus, nor Paul ever give an explicit right to divorce. None deny that divorce takes place, but they all forbid it nonetheless. What about the exception clause only found in Matthew?

The Exception Clause

Not even the exception clause in Matthew enables divorce, it merely excludes some divorced and remarried men from the category of adulterers. The primary purpose of the exception clause appears to be to exonerate the aggrieved party (men) from the charge of adultery after they remarry. In particular, sexual immorality—adultery—of the wife is an implicit divorce.

When a wife commits sexual immorality—adultery—she has not only broken the marriage covenant, but implicitly divorced her husband. In committing adultery, she divorces her husband by, quite literally, abandoning him for another. That’s what divorce is. And so, if he then marries another, he is not committing adultery. To wit:

“I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

The exception clause is an exception to the divorce, not the remarriage. When a man “divorces” his wife (gives her a certificate of divorce) after her sexual immorality—adultery—he is merely formalizing that which has already taken place when she abandoned her marriage. Consequently, when he remarries, he is not committing adultery.

This is precisely why Jesus said in Matthew 5 that when a man divorces his wife, it makes her look like an adulteress. The Revised English Version translation captures this sense:

It was also said, Whoever divorces his wife, he must give her a certificate of divorce. But I say to you, that anyone who divorces his wife, except because of sexual immorality, makes her look as if she had committed adultery, and whoever marries her after she is divorced looks as if he is an adulterer.

Because giving a wife a certificate-of-divorce makes everyone think she was unfaithful, a man can only divorce his wife if she was actually unfaithful. That’s the point of the exception clause. It’s not an allowance of divorce, but an exoneration of the husband for his wife’s unfaithfulness, that is, her divorcing him. It’s a matter of technical law: the certificate-of-divorce is the public acknowledgment that his wife was unfaithful. But why is this necessary?

On Agency

An idiomatic quirk of Hebrew and Greek, as described in by Rachel Aubrey in “Gender & voice: marriage, divorce, adultery“, is that even though both husband and wives have agency,

a man marries while a woman gets married
a man divorces while a woman gets divorced
a man fornicates while a woman gets fornicated
a man submits while a woman gets submitted

This merely reflects Mosaic Law:

“[Leviticus 10:10] assumes a male perpetrator: a person who commits adultery with the wife of a man, or the wife of a neighbor. But the event structure assumes a reciprocity of the action between the two adulterers.”

A similar construction with regards to a woman’s adultery occurs in the Septuagint’s Sirach 23:22-23, where the woman has agency and responsibility for her adultery, despite the gendered language used. This is similar to 1 Timothy 3:2,12 where—as discussed in “Ousting Female Pastors“—”one-wife husband” is a language-gendered idiom for the sex-neutral concept of marital faithfulness/monogamy applying to both husbands and wives. It is a common idiom to refer to men as the causative actors when referring to the agency of both sexes.

Men divorce, women get divorced, even when in actuality the woman is the moral agent:

…anyone who divorces his wife, except because of sexual immorality…

What Jesus said to the Pharisees made sense in the context of the practice of Levitical Law where the husband’s certificate-of-divorce implied that she had fornicated with another man. In modern society, if a woman wants to divorce her husband, she no longer needs her husband to issue a certificate-of-divorce.

No Divorce Allowed

And so we round back to the original claim. A Christian man can never divorce. If he is violating his marital covenant, his only duty is to restore his behavior; and if he is living within the marital covenant, he cannot divorce. The only way a Christian man can ever be divorced is if his wife divorces him. This potentially includes her being unfaithful, that is, divorcing him by taking another man.

A man—whose wife was unfaithful—might once have gone through the legal process under Mosaic Law to formalize the divorce that has already taken place. But, the New Covenant does not allow this: even though he may be separated from his wife, but he must seek to reconcile (if she is willing) and not divorce.

And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart (chōrizō) from her husband: But and if she depart (chōrizō), let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away (aphiēmi) his wife. — 1 Corinthians 7:10-11

No Christian man may ever initiate divorce, even if they no longer live together—an implicit divorce. Though this was allowed to the Jews under Mosaic Law, no Gentile Christian may do so given the higher standard. No man has the authority to end a marriage, for to do so is to deny God’s authority. As the disciples noted, if you cannot stay married to your spouse for life, no matter what happens, you should not marry.

But, can you remarry if your wife commits adultery and formally divorces you?


In his series on “Divorce“, Deep Strength gives eighteen different reasons (see section 19) why a man cannot divorce and remarry. I will not repeat the lengthy list here, but just because remarriage is not adultery does not mean a Christian man can remarry. Indeed, as he notes from scripture:

“Final Conclusion, according to Scriptures, for Christians: No divorce period.”

There is very little room for ambiguity here. If your wife formally divorces you, that divorce has no moral weight upon you or God. As far as you are concerned, you should treat her as if you are still married, but separated. You cannot remarry unless she dies.

Further Reading


  1. Lastmod

    Ah but you are forgetting the political / social / cultural and the elephant in the room

    “I am the exception to the Bible because: god knows my heart / I prayed about it / men must have sex to one up other men and prove themselves on how masculine they are”

    The “teachers of the law” in the Bible tried to catch Jesus in public with a gotcha: “what about divorce teacher???”

    We have rehashed and rehashed and rehashed…even when I was in church, but what is left out is the men, these “teachers of the law” themselves.

    They were not asking this for other men. They were asking for themselves. They *knew* Jesus gave correct answers and they wanted his answer, and if it suited them, they would accept it.

    The Pharisees at that time in that culture were the Alphas. They were the respected. They were rich. They had “status” and many probably had PLENTY opportunities to get a new younger wife……and the crooks and creeps that they were, they would use ANYTHING that Jesus said to their advantage if they could. If Jesus approved of divorce, well…..they would use that.

    Notice they didnt get the answer they wanted of “Yeah sure, if your wife gained weight, got old, or was with holding sex from you, toss her to the curb”

    So of course Jesus DIDNT give them the answer they wanted, and that gave them more ammo to want to get rid of him.

    Kinda like now……”rules for thee but not for me” in the Christian sphere. Still looking for where Jesus is some coach telling men to go to the gym, be cocky funny and how to get IOIs from women (rolls eyes)

    Been hearing online that more and more Red Pill guys are suddenly…..kinda-sorta Black Pill now. A few months back these same men said it meant “go and kill yourself”

    Red Pill “gurus” are actually like the Pharisees in Jesus’s time. So full of their own BS, its no wonder they dont sprout daisies.

  2. professorGBFMtm

    In his series on “Divorce“, Deep Strength gives eighteen different reasons (see section 19) why a man cannot divorce and remarry. I will not repeat the lengthy list here, but just because remarriage is not adultery does not mean a Christian man can remarry. Indeed, as he notes from scripture:

    “Final Conclusion, according to Scriptures, for Christians: No divorce period.”

    There is very little room for ambiguity here. If your wife formally divorces you, that divorce has no moral weight upon you or God. As far as you are concerned, you should treat her as if you are still married. You cannot remarry unless she dies.”

    You & D.s. know the vast majority will not hear that especially ”redpillers” who think ”now i know all the secrets to women and can have that ”perfect” marriage.”


    ”Kinda like now……”rules for thee but not for me” in the Christian sphere. Still looking for where Jesus is some coach telling men to go to the gym, be cocky funny and how to get IOIs from women (rolls eyes)

    Been hearing online that more and more Red Pill guys are suddenly…..kinda-sorta Black Pill now. A few months back these same men said it meant “go and kill yourself””

    Speaking of which Lastmod i just did some comments @SPAWNYS about how ”Redpillers” are now embracing the ”blackpill”(as ”hope” for most MEN -which is funny for them to say for obvious reasons)-even though as they said that” most places where it is on the net was ‘too scary”a few months back as you said(you know who i’m referring
    to obviously).

      1. Lastmod

        Sociologist Max Weber once said “class and status is a chance roll of the dice” and despite my disdain for most sociologists, he’s on to something.

        It can be just “right place right time” or where you grew up, environmental factors, cultural upbringing. Your presonal temperment. Im happy for that couple, but what miserable people?

        I got more miserable as my forties wore on in the “man o sphere” because of the impossible standards I had to somehow uplift to maybe….someday…….if I work really, really hard, apply the gazillion charts, graphs, and of coures serve god first and foremost! If it still didnt work??? You’re a “beta” and “god doesnt owe you anything, but wants only the best for you”

        None or just about zero in the sphere had to do this because of their “roll of the dice” which at least landed them opportunities that a growing number of men dont even have.

        Are the men in the sphere “miserable”? The content creators? I do know that most of what they purport that “men must do” they didnt do, didnt have to do and frankly would never do.

        According to them, there are no good women left……well, they live in Ukraine (lol) or some such place. Their wives all had a “viscereal” look the moment they met their future husband and the woman knew “he” was the one she was going to “submit and obey” to (so women have some mystical power now and just know) .

        It’s all just bragging / locker room talk of how *hot* they are to women. The Internet is a great place to paint a great portrait of yourself.

        As for the couple………waiting for the wife to set me up with her “great single friends” and the guy is hardly an image of “going to the gym” and I am sure their marriage never had any problems.

        1. Liz

          “The Internet is a great place to paint a great portrait of yourself.”

          It is. However, success has a pattern to it that is pretty recognizable.
          A while back (my last interactions at Jack’s, in May I think it was) I asked Mike to peruse that thread (he noticed I was a little down).
          After looking at it for 5 minutes he explained that the 5 people you spend the most time with are going to be the ones who influence your life, and I shouldn’t let it be with folks who obviously have serious personal issues.
          He is right, of course.
          That’s what the black pill represents.

          1. Lastmod

            All these people telling me and millions of men “what black pill is / represents” and none of these men live it.

            It evidently is “defeatist” it means “go and kill yourself” and “it drags men into the abyss”

            It means none of that.

            It is the only way for most men in my situation to *prevent* us from killing ourselves.
            I have heard it said “Men like you Lastmod need to cling to Jesus / The Cross / Rollo / Dalrocks Law / Jacks Sigma Male Point 36b


            These men are still believing and talking like a “a little game” and “some more of what-women-want-from-men and “man up” speeches about the gym, masculine pursuits / holding Frame at-all-costs” will get losers like me and countless millions upon millions of us a “great gal” who dont exist anymore but are everywhere.

            They base their whole identity on “sexual prowness” this is just as bad as the gays who base their identity on “their sexuality”

            Its foolish.

            And….again, to prevent millions of men from falling into an abyss……..they must accept the stances or theories of this “black pill” because if they do not, the will go postal.

            I am so sick of hearing “you blew your chances” and “god doesnt owe you anything” and “you’re selfish and asking god for a wife when you should have been praising him for all the amazing things he gave you”

            Such as?

            Poor communication skills. A lower than average IQ, below average looks, even when I was a young man, poor social skills from being sheltered at home because I actually had duties in the home, an addiction which I will *never* live down the stigma of

            These men……all of them back at Jack’s at Dal’s in church……its just a place to say who many women they have had, how many liked them, how many they could have had…..and you can too. Just have faith in Jesus (until we tell you your faith isnt right / wrong / not good enough / not to this scripture / not to this teaching) and go to the gym, shower, work really hard and tons of great women with potential will be there and if not……at least hot ones will like you or give IOIs and you can get practice / make mistakes

            And be rewarded!!!!

            I am not Mike. I cant fly a plane, I am one layoff away from delivering pizzas. The way you describe it…..like it was a bad thing. For many men, that is probably the best they can get! Shame on them for not having potential, despite many of these men stunted by the great scientiific and smart people for medding them up when they were kids! Shame on God for not making them all like Mike, Oscar, Jack, Scott and others.

            These men still think they are better, their sins are not as bad as men like me…and somehow guarenteed the keys to the kingdom because they can “quote scripture”

            There is no way out of this. No going to the gym, no taking public speaking classes is going to make an unattractive older man, or 23 year old 5’6″ man *hot*

            Most men cannot be an engineer with six degrees and marries an above average or qualified woman because in the CHristian sphere no women like this exist….the ones who do are already married to the “amazing leader”

            A single man has a place in church today: shut up. put money in that plate, sway to the moder praise. Dont you DARE have a sex drive or want a wife unless she thinks you are hot the second she meets you and dont even think of ANY leadership because we all know single men are creepy. They are losers. They must be *gay* or a pervert. They have a past….no hope for them, they “blew” it.

            Black pill is the only way for many men…..and most men who are Black Pill dont meet weekly in a church or have a community meeting to wallow or plot you and Mike’s doom. Most are working. At home, invisible and useless to society

            Unless we’re serving your food, cleaning your toilet or can be made to take your call when you computer or / Internet goes down on a holiday weekend.

          2. Liz

            I was a floor nurse. Seen and done years of very dirty work thank you.
            We are our habits.
            Surrounding oneself with miserable people will not improve your outlook. Spend your time with whomever you want. Misery can become an addiction too.

          3. Liz

            I had a patient at the nursing home who liked to pull feces out of her bottom and then use my head to brace herself on when she tried to stand up. I once had to wait ten hours for my shift to end, with poo on my head.
            She wasn’t the only person who did stuff like that, but that was one of the worst experiences (before mom hit her head and started doing the same, but also wielding knives and trying to stab people. That was fun)
            That memory comes to mind when you scream at me about how I want you to clean my toilet. Talk about not knowing someone at all. Good grief.
            Wish you well, lastmod.

          4. Lastmod

            Yes, yes…be just like you, just find positive people to hang around / surround yourself with.

            Had an older brother who messed himself constantly, many a day week and month and year doing this and I was a boy and a teen. I saw my parents exhaustion and I did / took up duities I had to do because “he is your brother”

            Maybe I should have had a *normal* brother? We all have something in our lives that I guess could hurt. The problem is, and this is not some cop-out

            You are a nurse? I will assume a RN. If not. Sue me. You entered a career where poo on the head happens, violence from patients and all kinds of bodily fludis come tossining up. A floor nurse in an ER is probably one of the mosty thankless jobs in healthcare. I didnt have a choice, and sadly, my social IQ and probably my whole outlook on life was pretty much at a major disadvantage by the time I was 15.

            The nearest neighbors were five miles down the dirt road. Tiny hamelt of 800 people. It was a “Peyton Place” kind of town……”just simple country folks, neighbor helping neighbor” (rolls eyes)

            Where was I gonna go? I wasnt abused, nor neflected but I had expectations in the home. No friends, my brother was always sick. It was also just a different time. It was the 1970’s. People especially immigrants like my parents had a very “make do or do without” attitude.

            I wasnt even medded up Liz, and I cannot imagine what some young men today faced when they were boys.

            Everyone is “wringing” their hands over “what to do / help young men today” and “we gotta teach these men how to be men”

            Its too late. By the time a boy is six to eight if he is not not socialized properly he will have all kinds of issues and if by a teen he is stunted in other areas, we get what we have now.

            The guy in the picture you posted….is he gonna let fifty, sixty men surround him so they can get “unmiserable”?

            No, its easy to tell the world “just be positive bro” and “find outgoing people to be around”

            I doubt Mike would have hung arounf with me in 1988 if we worked the same job, no…he would have told you this “strange socially awkward guy he works with and he is not creepy but he’s got issues”

            So much for that right.

          5. Liz

            “You just want ‘us’ to clean your toilet and do your dirty work!”
            me: “Well, actually I’ve held very dirty jobs to the point I had poo on my head”
            “You signed up for that!”

            Indeed I did.
            But the point was to refute an accusation, not complain about my life.
            Good to know ER floor nurse is one of the worst jobs.
            Done that too. It wasn’t so bad.
            Nursing home was much worse (thought you’d worked in a nursing home before? Maybe I’m thinking of someone else).
            I would have loved the nursing home if we’d had staff, but it was very poorly run so I’d be lucky to have 2 CNAs for 30 people (yes I was an RN).
            There were good things about it, too. Actually liked the residents but there wasn’t enough help. This isn’t a complaint, it’s an explanation.
            You can accuse me of being a prima dona who expects others to do their dirty work, but I’ve done much dirtier work than most.

          6. Liz

            I am very sorry you had such a terrible childhood, and so many hardships in life, lastmod. For me, concentrating on the things that I have no control over and make me unhappy are just a way to stay unhappy. I don’t think I’m unique in this respect. I definitely have much more to be grateful for than most.

          7. Liz

            Last post.
            My spouse has helped a lot of people. Your opinion he would ignore you if you worked together is not accurate. Someone he has been mentoring (who was an addict, with a father currently in prison for murder) is finally in a good position in life with a job he likes and does well (teaching). He was a mechanic in the USAF before but was kicked out (that affected his ability to find work later, and we were very worried about him). Anyway, there were a lot of bumps for him but he is finally doing well and we are grateful. That wasn’t the only guy he has mentored but it was the hardest case. Saved his life more than once.
            Mike is a good man.
            You probably aren’t interested, but if anyone is lurking one of the habits he has when starting the day is (after morning prayer) to think about five things he is grateful for. It can’t be the same things every day, so he has to consider new things he is grateful for. Right now he can’t even dress himself because of his neck and back so he is not without challenges, and it is very frustrating for him…more frustrating than anything he has been through, I think.

          8. Lastmod

            Liz, I can’t be “mad” at my parents for my childhood. They did the best they could for what they knew and there was no help, not that they would have taken it if it was around. I wasnt abused, I can count the the times on one hand minus the thumb they took a hand to me.

            The frustration I still have is “just pull yourself up by the bootstraps, work hard, get a good job, know your vision and purpose for life and you will be okay….and if you are not okay….well, you just-brought-it-on-yourself / you-love-being-miserable / go out and make friends with people in that Twitter post. Easy”

            The one thing humans are “equal” in is time for the most part. How you spend that time or utilize it can make a difference. It does get to the point though by a certain age…..and I dont know if its worse for men or women……but I do know even as a younger man at IBM. I had to work thrice as hard to get the same work done because I tick at a lower than avaerage IQ. My work ethic which is well above average has in the end got me positions and promotions…..with that, my day at work isnt eight hours, I have to bring it home because I cannot get it all done in a standard 8 hour day. My co-workers seem to have tons of free time. I have to re-read. I have to do over. I have to correct. I have to make a task list daily.

            It was the same in high school. It was the same in college. A “study skills class” cant fix this. A “time management class” wont help. So many conversations in Dal’s blog and Jack’s are way over my head. I dont understand the graphs and some of the convos, and I look like and am an idiot for even asking. I cant spend another eight hours after work with the little free time I have trying to understand something that will not benefit me.

            I worked in an independent senior citizen facility. Low income apartments for seniors. No nurses or doctors on staff. It was okay, but my workload as a janitor was a a nine story building in Fresno. I had to run all day to get basic tasks done. I did it better than any janitor before me, but I had to hustle all day.

            Someone had to do it, if it wasnt me, it would be someone else. Everyone can’t be “the leader” and everyman cant be “the boss” and everyman cant have the high skill or high paying job. I understand that. The boys on the other forums dont get that. I mean, at least in 1956 a guy with lower skills or intellect could get a job at the local plant rolling copper wire on a motor all day….no, he would not be rich but he had a Union, decent healthcare could take a modest vacation and own a home. Those days are gone, and have been gone……a regular on Jack’s forum in an angry tone always talks about “being a trucker, great pay” but long hours, Union busting and much more dangerous than in 1976.

            This same poster would no way let his daughter marry a trucker. Good for you and your sons, but not “good enough” for his kids. Typical on that forum.


          9. Liz

            I’ve been around a lot of people in my life and you don’t seem “slow” to me. Guess that’s not much consolation but I’m being honest.

            I was raised by a very angry , unhappy mother. That is when I started to perceive that just maybe anger/unhappiness could be an addiction.
            Because even when the conditions changed and her life improved she felt the same. She would look for reasons to be unhappy and angry, all of the time. And if ever anything good happened, she would be pleasant for a very short while and then go back into the mindset she hard-wired herself to be in.
            That is what I see with a lot of people on the internet.
            And there is endless reason to be unhappy, ungrateful, and miserable if one is looking for material it is endless….one can just go to reddit and find and endless supply.
            I watched her carefully and chose a different path. I did exactly the opposite, and it has worked well for me.

            I’ve noticed through the years there are also “triggers” for people.
            For example, coming home to an angry/unhappy person on the day to day is going to make one unhappy. That is why I left home at a very young age.
            Until her death, Mom was a ‘trigger’ for me. And even now I have nightmares about her and think of her daily.
            I pity that woman very much but I could not help her, the only thing that happened was she made me feel terrible every minute I was with her. (Dad, RIP, I had a good relationship with)
            I think black pill people/places have a similar feedback loop. I’ve seen the deterioration of formerly reasonable people over the years, when they spend too much time looking for darkness.
            Thanks for talking to me lastmod. Hope things get better for you (I watched that video of price is right you were on, it looked like fun!)

          10. Lastmod

            Oh…..well, I dont know. What I learned when I stumbled on to Dal’s page in (2012? 2013?)

            You pretty much are born with it or not as a man. Sure there are outliers….and yes, can fully admit that a total tool high school can turn into “that guy” years later….the one that suddenly is a lady-slayer and has all the potentials for fatherhood and the like…..but men like that already it. They just needed a brush up on fashion, some funny jokes…..and they just matured a little later than most men (physically / socially).

            I went to high school with a boy. We all knew at 15 or 16….he was going to be exceptional. He’s been an airline pilot with Delta for almost twenty years now. He did ROTC and attended MIT. He flew F16’s during the Iraq War. Married a gal in 1996 who was very pretty. He wasnt a full pilot yet but was doing his Officer stint wit the USAF at the time. She was a graduate of Williams College. Runs an exclusive daycare in the Dallas area now where they live. Three “exceptional” children who are now well into their twenties and all at or went to “exceptional” colleges and universities. He was a little above average looking…..but even back in 1986. We all knew he was “exceptional”

            Some people just have it or know what they want to do from age 5. In high school, this boy wanted to get an engineering degree and a USAF pilot. I wanted to be an architect, but even back then………..I knew. I KNEW I did not have the intellect, the skills, the drive or temperment to handle such a respected career. I love architecture and design I have to accept that. These are what many women call men who are “going places” in life. They are exceptional, and they should not be derided for this…..but even this boy told me in high school “Jay, you dont have the skills to be an architect”

            At least he was honest…and I knew the truth deep down anyway 🙂

            In our vast man-o-sphere today, too may give a very dangerous false hop “You can do anything with Jesus! If that is your purpose, he will help you achieve it, our Savior doesnt lie!”

            When you cannot or can’t they turn on a dime “You didnt work or trust god enough. You didnt take the opportunities” never minding high level careers like that require a few things that have to come together from birth, genetics, temperment, status, IQ, social IQ and a mish mash of other things.

            It is easy for someone to say “You have a lower status / wage job. Study hard, put your nose to the grindstone and if you dont become an investment banker, you didnt want it enough / the world needs ditch-diggers too, be happy god made you to do low grade work.” and then the audacity to tell the same man “he is unqualified for marriage because he is not a good provider / lower status man”

            The Man o Sphere is like the Caste System in India. Rigid. You’re not allowed to move and it is still only at the the approval of the the infamous “they”

            As for “The Price Is Right” it was fun. I had a good time. Never would I have thought that in the 1970’s and 1980’s watching that gameshow when home sick from school that I would be a contestant and winner on that show. Good times!

          11. Derek L. Ramsey


            In our vast man-o-sphere today, too may give a very dangerous false hope “You can do anything with Jesus! If that is your purpose, he will help you achieve it, our Savior doesnt lie!”

            This is equivalent to “you go girl!” and feminist empowerment. It is an empty aphorism, devoid of any real meaning.

            Christ does indeed promise to guide us in his purpose for us, but without knowing what his purpose is, this “encouragement” is of no value whatsoever. Far more important is to identify what Christ desires from us.

            But, do people really want to know what that is? Are they prepared for the sacrifices that may be demanded of them?

            Consider how Peter—writing in his first epistle—states that the will of God is that Christians will suffer cruelty for the sake of Christ, perhaps even to the point of death. Peter provides true hope that they can endure any suffering with Jesus at their side.

            Notice the difference between “You can do anything with Jesus!” and “Christ will help you endure suffering, and when you die you will be raised to eternal life.” Only one of these matches the encouragement that public school teachers and many pastors give.


          12. Lastmod

            I was watching a YouTuber who is pretty big in the ‘sphere, not Rollo but this guy has been quoted or linked to here and there over the years at Dal and Jack’s blog.

            He’s not christian, but we all know *god knows his heart, and we cannot judge him* (because they *agree* with him, anyone else would be made into a sinner that needs to repent immediately, or heaven forbid…it was a woman, she needs to accept Jesus and sit in shame in the corner of the church for the rest of her life, but don’t worry she’ll be in heaven when she dies and we will all be “equal” but while on earth……we’ll judge, and condemn those who do not agree with us)

            This guy was giving the usual tips, so you won’t be a “loser” with women, life, career, and everything else.

            In the end it all boiled down to again: YOU have to jump through the gazillion hoops, of work, go to the gym, have cool hobbies (that women like, or are deemed very masculine). Mind you, you do this while dating, building a career, taking care of other business, work,. No one in the ‘sphere ever sleeps, has plenty of free time because they know how to “budget time” and if you don’t:

            you like being miserable, you like being a loser…..the usually digs

            His advice for and about women…pretty much everything is a “red flag” and if you dont find someone because of these “red flgas” again; you like being a loser, you are not vetting properly, the problem is you……not women. Not our culture. Not our value system (and the sphere, including the “chritsian” ones, it values the sex-act over anything).

            You see, the guy who made this video……..he’s *helping* you and giving foolproof advice. He was born naturally good looking. He, like our friend Scott “never had to do anything to get female attention” and its easy for this guy……it should be easy for you. Men like this sadly still believe “anyone can be like me” but with the adage of “no, you can’t…..well, you can but it will take so much work and effort, and guess what……she will still divorce you. You should have been just like me.”

            The fact of life is: Most men are never going to be the “the boss” and most men are never going to be an engineer, or lawyer, or surgeon.

            The disciples were fishermen. They probably had arranged marriges with a local gal in Nazareth (I have seen the pics of Nazareth, its tiny …even in the times of Jesus). Being a fisherman was boom-bust. It was a tough job, and it didnt have a 401K plan, a pension or healthcare provided. In todays world, all these men would be labeled “losers” who “settled” and didnt want to put “the work in” to be better men.

            Jesus saw potentials, and he knew they were hardly perfect. It was what they became. They *left* their wives to follow Jesus. Can you imagine……a man who is married today suddenly decides he is going to quit his job, and focus on the matter of Christ only and first.

            The church and men in the ‘sphere would call him a fool’s fool. The shril voices from women “how dare he drop his life, children and family and wife to follow God. He has reponsablities!”

            Would divorce be permisssible then???? (just kidding)

            But the larger take in the end. When all of these mighty men in the faith today are willing to follow Jesus “no matter what” and stop shaming, blaming and pointing all the faults of modern manhood at the feet of men like me (and there millions upon millions now) perhaps we can actually have a discussion about what it means to be a christian.

            In the meanwhile when christianity is all about “women” and “being a leader” and “having way better than average provision” and being a man on the terms they dont even live up to……..we will still have this problem.

      2. Derek L. Ramsey


        “Stop taking advice from miserable people”

        Or its corollaries: stop taking advice on relationships from fornicators and advice on marriage from divorced (or unmarried) men.

        “he explained that the 5 people you spend the most time with are going to be the ones who influence your life, and I shouldn’t let it be with folks who obviously have serious personal issues. He is right, of course. That’s what the black pill represents.”

        This is one reason I often depart from blogging or commenting in order to spend extended time with my family.


  3. Lastmod

    Many years ago….when I wore a Salvation Army Uniform, it was said and to be put into daily action “Heart to God and Hand to Man”

    The Uniform did not make one “holy” or “saved” or “better than you” or “more of a Christian” it was to be an outward expression of a very deep, and convincing inward change. I met a few in my time who did embody this deeply.

    I floundered….not in reckless sin, and I not to bring shame to the movement……but I did not hold fast with a heart to God. Not in rebellion, but in conviction. I just could not “trust and obey” in the end. The faith had too many rules, too many donts. I wasnt really smart enough, wise enough or good enough to come before a holy god. I came to the conclusion in the end, the narrow gate, was indeed too narrow for just about everyone.

    With this endless debate over “divorce” (as the one current example ) with scripture and what it means, and really means, or *should mean* still pushes me hard and heavy. What I gather from the sphere with this from many (not just online, but in church proper over the years and meeting people over the years who profess Him) in all Christian “hot button topics” and endless sectarian debates:

    The narrow gate IS narrow, and this endless debate over which verse, rule, church doctrine, or a letter that Pope Indulgence the 10th sent in 1321 to this or that council; all seem to be the serpent “Did God really say this???” and “Did God really mean that???” and again, to the people who know the Word, Law, doctrine, historical context and all else under it seem to be making into a “rules for thee but not for me” kind of thing.

    “My future wife lied to me! I found out the truth later!”

    Some will want and expect a “grant from scripture to divorce” while others in the same sphere will and the same church would get the “you should investigated and interview her friends and family before the third date before you asked for a kiss on the third day before her period when she is most reasonable, every school boy knows this. This was your own fault!” and “We serve a God who loves suffering, and if you need to suffer, that is up to him, not you!”

    The bearers of “the law” today be it in the blue-pilled cucked-churches that are everywhere (except theirs of course) or in the ‘sphere are the Pharisees of today for the most part.

    They have a *mind* for God. Yes they know Scripture, fell out of the womb speaking in tongues, knew their whole life-script at age 4 but their heart is of the world……just like the people they correct, rebuke and judge. Their hand to man is sloppy evangelism of “I’ll pray for you!” liked James warned us about.

    The gate is narrow for everyone, except themselves.

    Three nights ago I dreamt I was on a mountain…..looked like it was from the Adirondacks of my youth, and childhood. No, God didnt speak to me. Didn’t see a “stairway to heaven” and no, didnt see a “burning bush” or any sign. Was not told to “go to Los Angeles, and find a donkey and preach to the people to repent”

    I was sitting with a fellow hiker (unknown man, a maneless faceless man. Just a hiker) and we were just speaking about God. A heart minded relationship chat. No, I dont remember what scriptures were quoted but it was experience that was talked about. A place in creation which is so beautiful……and The Adirondacks are. They were once the tallest mountains on Earth.

    Two men, strangers talking about God, and relationship of the heart, yes…..still sinful in ways I am sure….and yes, seated upon a pinnacle that was from the time of the Earth’s “creation” discussing the eternal, fellowshipping with a stranger about God and how it is just beyond us all. Something a *heart* would have to be in awe of I suppose. A hand to a starnger on this mountain in fellowship and in blind trust of what God wanted fellowship to be. Forget the *mind* this was here long before any human walked on this peak……

    “Strangers passing in the street, by two separate glances meet and I am you and what I see is me” (Pink Floyd, 1973)

    If this faith, this Jesus, these scriptures are to mean anything and reconcile me or anyone else…….the Leaders are going to have to take their Saviors example and bring it down a notch.

    As for Blackpill being a “hope” I never would have said or supported such drivel. Blackpill is reality. Glad some Red Pill men are deciding to start living it in, it actually might help them in evangelism.

    1. Derek L. Ramsey

      I enjoyed reading about your dream. I understand what you mean, though it is hard to put it into words.

      “I came to the conclusion in the end, the narrow gate, was indeed too narrow for just about everyone. [..] The narrow gate IS narrow, and this endless debate over which verse… [..] Blackpill is reality. Glad some Red Pill men are deciding to start living it in, it actually might help them in evangelism.”

      My sincerest hope is that one day again you will find your way through the narrow gate. If I understand you correctly, I think we agree on this much: one doesn’t need the answers to such sectarian debates in order to enter the narrow gate that leads to life.

      I don’t want anyone to live in hopelessness or despair, but at the same time I cannot promise relief in this life because Christ did not promise relief for his followers. The offer of an end to suffering and glorification is only for after death.

      But I do think Words of Truth are as beautiful now as the mountains in your dream. I love those scriptures that I quote, as you love those mountains. Whether or not I understand them correctly, they are beautiful to me and I strive to get even a glimpse of their true splendor.

      “If this faith, this Jesus, these scriptures are to mean anything and reconcile me or anyone else…….the Leaders are going to have to take their Saviors example and bring it down a notch.”

      How would you suggest this be done? I confess that I do not know how.


  4. Lastmod

    How is this to be done? Let the people with the Gifts or the *heart* in this area be allowed to do this. Current church hierarchy (all them) will not allow this. This is what they currently do with evangelism:

    You have to have workshops or training, a degree now….work in a relatable field, and of course you have to make sure you are doing it the *way* they see fit. You will take their instructions, template into a workbook, a study guide. It will be assumed that “if they want to hear it, they will hear if, if they reject it….it wasnt our materials, or expectations of you….YOU will be the problem.” Just like their “Game” and their “marriage models” and “charts and graphs” and arrogance, they have *proven* their way is correct.

    The human aspect of it has been removed. If it failed, YOU didnt deliver it properly. It was not any of their materials. They have degrees, you see…..they have been a christian longer than you…..they know Hebrew……they studied at this seminary…….they did a mission trip to Africa when they were 16 (mind you, ignoring the trailer park that sits on a toxic waste dump on the bad side of their own town or county here in the USA).

    Jesus turned all of this upside down. Okay, he was God…..but he was also man right? He knew all the foils and fobbles of our nature. He didnt make excuses for it. He didnt say “Well my father knows best, and you follow my teachings. End of discussion”

    No. He had a relatable humility, demeanor, craft, heart and helping hand so people could and would relate to him. How come then God just did not send an angel, or a warrior , or Alpha Male or Chad down to “put the people in line and make them do what his father said, or die!”

    That is what our current “evangelism” is. The right people in a church or community like this *must* allow the ones with this talent to do that work. No, we have the usual 10% who seem to have “all the gifts” and the rest are “mindless sheep and brainless people in the flock who are ruining it, and need to be given the tools that we deemed *correct* to go make it happen”

    Mind you, these great men need the mindless sheep, the blue pilled-pedestalizing women types to go out and present their material…..and they are shocked when it doesnt work or with good results. Just like their Game, their Christian Masculinity, their God Pill, their podcasts, their praise music, their complex and high intellectual terms. …..and snarky retorts.

    If christains are going to make “disciples of the world” they have to understand (they wont) that what they are doing is harmful, wrong and dangerous to their own faith.

    It doesnt mean approving of everything, but it does mean if a man has a gift, and it is stunted, besieged, ripped apart and shat on by the people he is supposed to be “breathern” with, because heaven forbid if another man has something from God that I do not!!!!

    Hence why few and fewer believer or believe out of tradition and fear instead of truly of heart.

    1. Derek L. Ramsey


      “You have to have workshops or training, a degree now….work in a relatable field, and of course you have to make sure you are doing it the *way* they see fit. “

      I know exactly what you mean. I probably would have become a pastor a couple decades ago if not for the licensing and seminary requirements.

      “It doesnt mean approving of everything”

      I’ve always appreciated that some of the greatest heretics at church are also among the most sincere followers of Christ. Sure, they get the details wrong, but they are also the most earnest in seeking God. I learn a lot from people like that.

      It is an extremely difficult message to convey, but I try hard not to condemn people on this blog. Everyone is God’s creature and should be treated accordingly, even if I happen to disagree with something they say.

      In any case, most of what you describe indicates that the way to serve Christ best is face-to-face with those in need. I certainly think so. Although some people find Christ online, I suspect the vast majority of them do not.

      I think this is why I need to take time away from blogging and commenting from time to time. What you’ve written has given me a lot to think and meditate on.


  5. Lastmod


    This is where I grew up. This is where I learned solitude and the heartbreakingly beautiful loneliness as a teen. I left it, not because I hated it but there was no choice really. Finish college and just well….work a seasonal job in summer?

    If I have ever felt close to God? It was here. Not in a church. Not a “bible study” where any insight you make is wrong. Def not in a “christian / biblical / real man forum”

    The summers are very hot and humid. The fall short and the winters long, deep and cold. Even the Mohawk Indians left when the fall came / hunting season ended because they they would starve in winter if they lived here. There really isnt much for one to “do” here career wise. County job. The local township doctor. A nurse for the larger regional hospital. For most young men……..go work at the local burger joint. Church attendance here is one of the lowest in the nation, not because they are “red pilled” but for the fact that the church offers them nothing.

    It is an ancient place. A quiet place. A place that still runs deep in my marrow. A place of contradiction, reflection. A place most dont know or even care about. A place I will never escape from, no matter how far I go from it.

    There will be a cool lapping of tannin soaked pond water, reflecting copper near the shore. The feraful lonely cry of a lake loon (a very ancient / early bird species), the hum of bullfrogs as the sun set. The smell of pine, arrowroot and blueberries. A place where you want live, but cannot stay……..its a wilderness, its unforgiving and it doesnt care. But it is timeless as the word of god that you Derek inspires you and that you love

    1. Derek L. Ramsey


      “The feraful lonely cry of a lake loon (a very ancient / early bird species), the hum of bullfrogs as the sun set. The smell of pine, arrowroot and blueberries.”

      My extended family hails from Maine, where we have a cabin on a secluded lake that is very much like what you describe here. Taking a canoe out onto the lake, hearing the lap of the water, feeling the wind blow softly, seeing the bald eagles soar, hearing the cry of the loon and the croak of the massive bullfrogs, and just being at peace. It is like nothing else.


    1. I couldn’t imagine why on earth I would be getting looks from DR’s blog, but now I see.

      Thanks for the compliment LIz!

      And yes, Derek, I agree that it isn’t a new of revelatory take. I think the connection of Biblical truths to the great thoughts that have been uttered in history are important. It underscores that Truth is valid, standing and shining brightly even if there is no Scripture quotation attached to it.

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