The original liturgy:
The Roman liturgy:
Macarius the Elder
Answer. At that time, the great and the righteous men, and kings and prophets, were aware indeed that the Redeemer was coming; but that He should suffer and be crucified, and His blood poured out upon the cross, they neither knew, nor had they heard it; neither had it entered into their heart that there should be a baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and that in the church bread and wine should be offered, the symbol of His flesh and blood, and that those who partake of the visible bread eat spiritually the flesh of the Lord, and that the apostles and Christians receive the Paraclete, and are endued with power from on high, and are filled with the Godhead, and their souls mingled with the Holy Ghost. This the prophets and kings knew not, neither did it enter into their heart. Now, Christians have a very different wealth, and their hearts are set upon the Godhead; but for all this joy and comfort, they are still under fear and trembling.
Citation: Macarius the Elder, “Homily 27.” Question 7 (390)
In Macarius the Elder (390) we see the pattern of doctrinal change that started with Cyril in 350, continued with Serapion in 353, Apostolic Constitutions in 375-380, and Ambrose in 389, and in which Chrysostom would write in c.400: that bread and wine, symbolically representing the body and blood of Christ, were offered as a sacrifice.
Derek, you probably are not going to convince many on this extensive stance you have taken.
I have known a few Catholics and one Orthodox who indeed believe the bread and wine do indeed become the actual “body and blood of Christ”
In the end, it can be a be a very moving experience for people. At my mothers funeral and final rites, she had a high Anglican service (that is what she wanted). When the “Lords Supper” was offered, I did partake because it would be the only time I ever had “holy communion” with my mother.
The chorale during during the supper was moving, and when the Vicar came by offeed the bead he gently said “His brody, broken. For you.” and then a sip of wine from the cup, the same gentle voice “His blood. Shed for you” I partook. Made the sign of the cross, stood up and turned around to walk back from the altar rail to my pew. There…I saw my mothers ashes in the box, and a cross made from them atop of it.
I then was moved. My knees shook, I fell to the small table and box where she now was. Present. But now gone. Like Christ’s actual body. A powerful symbol. I then cried. Lost it. Family helped me up. Some others in the congregation who knew my mother also came up to comfort. The Vicar came as well to comfort in gentle words.
The whole experience is meant to be “remembered” of what Christ did. Tradition. A symbol. A powerful one. Why would He have said “do this in rememberance of me” if He did not know through the generations after it would provide a believer with hope, a renewal and something for us….as He did all things for.
Again, I dont beleive it makes you saved, or “holy” or “set apart” and it doesnt “allow” you into heaven. Its a celebration in a way of all He stood for.
People are not interested in what history records if it violates their feelings. So powerful are feelings…
…that I expect to convince no one. This is an ideas blog, not a feelings blog. I’m the world’s worst therapist.
Yes, it is! Indeed, it is supposed to be a celebration.
With the exception of maybe one or two writers in this series—Gregory of Nyssa being the most notable exception—they all view the bread and wine as symbols of the body and blood of Jesus. This is the nearly universal ancient testimony. By and large, we do not see writers—including Roman Catholic writers—describing the literal body and blood. You have to read into the 5th, 6th, and 7th centuries before the symbol turns literal, after the Rise of Roman Catholicism, long after the Apostolic Age.
What we do see, starting around 350, is a plain change from two separate rituals—offering a tithe in a sacrificial ceremony of unconsecrated food and celebrating a meal of consecrated bread and wine—into one ritual: sacrificing the symbols of Christ’s body and blood.
It is turning the symbol into a sacrifice that makes it idolatry, not the symbol itself.
Taking the bread and wine, symbols of Christ’s body and blood, and feeling Christ’s actual presence is not idolatry.
This “stance” is extensive because the evidence is overwhelming and lopsided.
Would critics be convinced if only the evidence was more ambiguous or “fairly” balanced?
Would critics be swayed if only there was less evidence?
Would critics convert if only the early writers were more accommodating?
Obviously the issue isn’t the quality or quantity of the evidence. It is blind faith, the abandonment of reason, and relativism.
Related:
Whatever works for you, dude!
Oh? We’re now looking at Red Pill with some “self criticism”?
Oh…we’re not. Again, another doubling down of:
Game works. If it doesnt work, just love “jesus more than anything” and you will be happy in eternity, but for us men who love and worship sex more than anything, our *proven* advice works.
Find a model that works for you, and all the models are *proven* to work, if they do not, find and rejoice in your suffering with your Savior…….because he suffered, except if you have had a bad marriage….then rail in “red pill rage” for the rest of your life….this isnt “black pill” its biblical (rolls eyes)
All they keep doing is “doubling down” on something that worked for a paltry few men almost twenty years ago. We keep having to thank “Game” and Rollo and others for all the “work” they did to help millions of men find love, sex, and IOIs 24 hrs a day!
On Instagram, there was a “christian” post about online “poRn” and how “nice guys” fall for it, and we have to be “confident” in Jesus and men have to be “not nice” and find their “god given mission” and live it for Jesus and building families.
Okay. Agree in theory. PoRn is bad. Sinful. Not healthy for men.
The problem again lies in the fact and crass assumptions: only men look at this. the women in this industry somehow, someway were *made* by *nice guys* to do this work. Evidently all the men in this industry are an illusion, not really there because men getting sex = good.
Here is where Red Pill, He-Man, Real Man Christianity is again……ten years behind the times and *stuck* on models, theories (which they claim they never follow) and stuff that isnt relevant anymore.
A former male poRn star, who was at one time very handsome (well, still is for his age), was in demand, had millions of views, was with over a 1000 YOUNG women. He commented on the post. He is now a Christian, and turned his back on that lifestyle and is ashamed of it. He mentioned about the post, (quoted directly) :
“Wrong again brothers. For ten years now, the fastest and largest market for online poRn is WOMEN. They love seeing *hot guys* get down, naked . They love handsome men, and they love seeing a handsome, young guy get this way in poRn. Since Covid, this industry exploded further. For about ten years now even married women are liking it. Men or these “nice guys” as you claim have moved to “only fans” and many more are now generating AI poRn stars and other swank material.
You have to stop blaming single men who are not as masculine as you think you are for all the problems in the church. I was in the industry, and let me tell you, the men there are far from “nice” many are cutthroat, ruthless and need a Savior more than you know. Drugs, and other issues men in that industry face scream sin, and many are cries for help.”
He went on telling them that “nice men” are not soley responsible for the “poRn boom” and other issues around it.
He was roundly told “he was wrong” and the doubling down of “nice men with low self esteem” are ruining the church, women, society and they just need to “get confidence and be leaders in the church”
This guy was there, left. Explained calmly. Didnt boast or brag about how many, how awesome he was in the sack. How hot he was. He spoke of it being a terrible place and he even said this industry (along with prostitution) is the worlds oldest profession…….he was ramming his head against the a wall here, and others started dissing him for just diagreeing with him, and questioning his own faith.
I related as well because in these forums and the christian manosphere……they are stuck on if / then statements. charts. All kinds of *proven* metrics and “if the marble doesnt fall one way, it falls the other”
I sent him a DM and just told the dude “glad you turned your back from that life” and he replied “Me too my man, but I will have the consequences forever. Everyone in my family eventually found out I was doing this work. Even my grnadmother, and my videso I am in for a decade ago still get tons of views. Its a cross I will bear forever. These men dont and wont understand this. They think being a man means having sex”
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”A former male poRn star, who was at one time very handsome (well, still is for his age), was in demand, had millions of views, was with over a 1000 YOUNG women. He commented on the post. He is now a Christian, and turned his back on that lifestyle and is ashamed of it. He mentioned about the post, (quoted directly) :
“Wrong again brothers. For ten years now, the fastest and largest market for online poRn is WOMEN. They love seeing *hot guys* get down, naked . They love handsome men, and they love seeing a handsome, young guy get this way in poRn. Since Covid, this industry exploded further. For about ten years now even married women are liking it. Men or these “nice guys” as you claim have moved to “only fans” and many more are now generating AI poRn stars and other swank material.
You have to stop blaming single men who are not as masculine as you think you are for all the problems in the church. I was in the industry, and let me tell you, the men there are far from “nice” many are cutthroat, ruthless and need a Savior more than you know. Drugs, and other issues men in that industry face scream sin, and many are cries for help.”
He went on telling them that “nice men” are not soley responsible for the “poRn boom” and other issues around it.”
Some 20 years ago i was listening to the radio one morning and glenn beck started talking about a muslim man who found out his wife , not his son like he thought rented a poRn tape from a video rental store on his account there.
Exactly. Many in Red Pill and the church are still somehow convinced women “dont like sex” and are somehow more “pure” than men when Jesus Himself said ” All have sin / not one is righteous”
Since “Game” became a thing, we now have this very strange, convuluted thing “women like sex only with hot men, so get jecked, be masculine, be funny…….and countered with looks really dont matter to women……but change your style, go to the gym and become a Ralph Lauren model. Easy. Anyone can do it.” and add models, metrics, rules, maxims, must do’s, the rainbow of pills, scales, terms, definitions, Laws, and ‘brave new world” terms of Alpha, Beta, Gamma…….
Then tell men a gazillion models and how one has to study, apply, test, test drive, date, date, date…cause its only a numbers game….thent o be told
No, AWALT. She will divorced you. She’s lying. She can trick. Put up a fascade…but using 19th century housewife science its now to visceral looks that cannot be faked.
Does anyone besides me see how pointless all this is in the end? “Have your yes mean yes and your no mean no”
That is a starting point a man should start with when dealing with / liking a girl. Not IOIs, not complex answers and “decoding” her secret language of what she “really” means.
These men LOVE seeing “chumps” and “losers” and “betas” struggle. The need a massive debased bunch of men stuck on the third step of Game on the 8th moon of Saturn and throwing the “diluted” Christian faith in, instead of doing what Christ said from James on how to treat others and from the Letters of how to “convince” a man of the cause of Christ.
That takes work. Too busy strutting like Dr. Suess’s “Sneetches” on how self important they are.