When I wrote “The Living Voice,” I noted that the way scripture and authority are presented implies that the Book of Revelation is useless.
One Roman Catholic is quick to admit that he thinks the book of Revelation is useless…
Citation: Douglas Beaumont, “Christianity and the Apostasy Narrative.”
…so why not just admit that the whole Bible is voiceless, difficult, unintelligible, and dead? Why even quote from it?
This is quite important. If the metaphysical belief is that the prophecies—of Daniel, John the Revelator, Jesus at the Olivet Discourse, and Paul in 2 Thesssalonians—are too confusing to be known, then it is admitting that these portions of scripture are effectively useless. Yes, they are acknowledged as predictions of future events, but no, you are not allowed to use them as predictions of future events.
Your periodic reminder: That guy who really, REALLY wants to teach a Sunday School class on eschatology? Do NOT allow him to teach a Sunday School class on eschatology.
My take is that a pastor should take care to have the leadership unified (broadly, not hair-splitting) in eschatology, and let it undergird the rest of their teaching, not as an end (pun intended) in itself.
Here is the problem. There are many different frameworks of eschatology. Historic premillenialism, dispentational premillenialism, amillenialism, postmillenialism, full preterism, partial preterism, futurism, and the historicist position. A standard teaching—like in a formal college setting or a church mini-course—would involve learning about the various positions and comparing and contrasting them. In short, it would be educational.
But, an educational approach does not get around the problem. Indeed, it exacerbates it. By covering the various views, it implies that they each have merits. This approach is not trying to find out how to understand biblical prophecy, it’s trying to find out how others try to explain biblical prophesy. These are not the same.
There are no less than 8 or 9 different eschatological systems, all of them mutually exclusive. One reason you wouldn’t want to have a random person teaching a Sunday School class on eschatology is that, by definition, most persons are going to be wrong before they even open their mouths. If they had, hypothetically, picked their favorite eschatological scheme at random, they’d have a greater than 80% chance of being wrong at the start.
Before you decide who should or shouldn’t teach, you have to know what the truth of the matter is. But that’s the one thing that is denied! So effectively what Church Curmudgeon is arguing for is that no one should teach on eschatology unless it is pre-sanitized and pre-approved by those who believe that no one can know what biblical prophecy is. He’s arguing not for a particular eschatological view on its own merits, but for the application of authority.
People like to say that Daniel, Revelation, and the Olivet Discourse are confusing and difficult. But, it is the fallacious Arguments from Authority that are a major reason why the theology of eschatology has no clarity. Theological teachings are structured so as to avoid clarity!
Even when I was not a Believer, I heard people say on Sunday morning “televangelism” and when I would occasionally watch “The 700 Club” or speak to a “christian”
They would go on and on about how we are “in the end times” and Jesus is coming back by 1983, 1992, 2022, 2000, 1999…….
and the Book of Revelation “says so” and its proven.
New Age folks would tell me about how all the “predictions” of Nostradamus have so far come true
While in India, and reading “the Upanishads” there are writings about “the end of this cycle” and its all coming true evidently.
Since the beginning, people have been writing, speaking, predicting “the end” and the return of man to a “natural” or “real” undefiled state
In 1347-1349 with the “Black Death” which wiped out a huge portion of the worlds’ population (not just Europe, in China and India too) there are writings, letters about a “scourge upon the land, people speaking of ill luck, bad fates and corrupt rulers and emperors who have caused this”
In the Christian world, it was blamed on sin, and evil, and the wickedness of man, Gods wrath, and “revaltion” in the Bible predicted this.
I smirk to myself.
The war to end all wars, WW II…..in a time when “everyone” was evidently devout, holy, Christian, and followed “every word” of The Bible and went to church weekly, got married at age 18……
That war caused so much carnage and death worldwide. Some were saying at that time “In The Bible, if you read it properly, John predicted this in Revelation”
Nonsense.
Jesus told us to be “ready”
None know the hour, second, day or minute. Not the Son. Not the Saints, not “the elect” not Red Pill, not the angels. Only The Father knows. Not some “bold n biblical” preacher in a country church in The South. No one knows. Not The Pope.
End times predictions or what “thinkers” have written over the centuries…….be it through a vision, dream, spoke with God……..
It gives us something to ponder. But to say “this means this, and if you are smart like me, you will know this is what it means”
We are told “the Christian faith is clarity and not confusion” and only “satan / ol scratch brings confusion”
And again and again……….all these thinkers, pastors, priests are making this true faith INTO confusion.
Besides, if we are indeed a Believer of the humble carpenter, the man of sorrows, the man from Galilee, the Son of God….and we live a life worthy of His favor, and trust, Believe, and follow Him
We really dont have anything to worry about.
If the predictions in the Bible are useless, what do you think their purpose is then? Why would Jesus warn people to flee to the mountains when they saw the signs if he wasn’t really talking about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans? We know from the historical account that many Jews did, in actuality, flee to the mountains prior to the fall of Jerusalem. But many who did not perished.
It seems to me that the solution to the lack of specificity is built in through the series of signs and warnings and Old Testament references. After all, Jesus said to flee when they saw the signs, because they couldn’t know precisely when the catastrophe would take place. He assumed that the signs would be evident, and they were.
However, if you think, as Catholic Cardinal (and now Saint) John Henry Newman, that Jesus was wrong about the Olivet Discourse, then you will believe that doctrine can change and develop. You’ll be able to believe anything. It will be the chaos you describe above.
The confusion you describe above is, logically, because the vast majority of those you describe chose the same basic explanation from among the 8 to 9 possible options. The extremely popular American-centric evangelical option they chose is obviously wrong, what with it repeatedly failing to predict (even in retrospect!).
No Jesus isnt wrong. He cant be. The vision to John, is a vision. From the Lord. Okay. I can believe that.
What I dont believe is “this means this, and this means that. Boom. See. He saw this, it means Hitler. He saw that, well that means the Kennedy assassination” predicted. Infallible.
No.
When you have a powerful dream, and when YOU try explain it or write it down, its such a personal thing, words or descriptions cannot at times provide the personal impact or what was trying to be said in sense.
Charlie Manson took the Revelation from The Bible and tied much of it to The Beatles (Revolution 9) from 1968.
And reading when he said or how he read into it, sure you could indeed make it that conclusion.
Jesus warned. God does give visions. But I prefer to go with what Jesus said 🙂
I think you are right. But I would go beyond that. All books of the Bible are useless.
Your reasoning seems to be
Premise 1. There are no less than 8 or 9 different eschatological systems
Premise 2. All of them mutually exclusive and compatible with Revelation.
Premise 3. You should derive an eschatological system only from Scripture. This is the use of books of Scripture.
Then, you are right. The premises are incoherent, because.
From Premise 1 and Premise 2 you derive:
Conclusion 1. You cannot derive an eschatological system only from Revelation.
From Conclusion 1 and Premise 3 you derive:
Conclusion 2. Revelation is useless.
The logical reasoning is valid and iron-clad. You only have two ways: deny one of the premises or accept the conclusion. It is impossible to deny Premise 1 or Premise 2, because they are backed by reality. So your only options is deny Premise 3 or accept the conclusion.
Well, the same logical reasoning can be applied to the entirety of Scripture:
Premise 1. There are no less than 8 or 9 different salvation systems (with or without predestination, with or without baptism, belonging to one Church or other: in fact there are thousands of salvations systems but let’s keep it to 8 or 9)
Premise 2. All of them mutually exclusive and compatible with Scripture (Every one of them is justified by Scripture. It is only that you emphasize some verses over other verses. All Churches have their Biblical justification. The fact that they are exclusive does not merit explanation: besides the fact that some Churches claim that you are only saved if you belong to this Church, there are Churches that are Arminian and other Calvinist, there are Churches that demand baptism and other do not consider it necessary for salvation).
Premise 3. You should derive a salvation system only from Scripture. This is the use of books of Scripture. Also known as “Sola Scriptura”.
Then, you are right. The premises are incoherent, because.
From Premise 1 and Premise 2 you derive:
Conclusion 1. You cannot derive a salvation system only from Scripture.
From Conclusion 1 and Premise 3 you derive:
Conclusion 2. Scripture is useless.
You cannot deny Premise 1. The usual defense of Sola Scriptura believers is that Premise 2 is false. Of course, they cannot deny the difference of salvation systems so they deny that they are incompatible. This goes against the Law of Non Contradiction. Baptism is necessary or not necessary at the same time.
A usual move is to say that all the salvation systems (or all the true salvation systems) have a core of intersection, which is true and it is the cause of salvation (The core is really tiny because diversity is so great. Things like: Jesus died for our sins and similar). But you can say the same about eschatological systems: they have things in common (Jesus will return and judge, etc.)
So Premise 2 is clearly false. So you have only two options: deny Premise 3 or accept the conclusion. The non-Christian will gladly accept the conclusion. Scripture is useless because Christianity is false.
For Christians, the only move is reject Sola Scriptura (this does not mean that you have to accept any Church: only reject a logically incoherent doctrine). But what about the people that have made Sola Scriptura the center of their identity? They may have born in a family or a church where Sola Scriptura is hold as a self-evident truth. It is difficult to get over this childhood indoctrination. Or they have built a theological system over Sola Scriptura (and other things) so rejecting Sola Scriptura means the collapsing of their worldview.
These guys have two options and both mean abandoning logic, because the logic is solid. I have seen both options many times in real life
The first one is trying to over-complicate the problem looking for fallacies that bolster Sola Scriptura. It is not that they are dishonest: they believe these fallacies, which solve their cognitive dissonance. The Scripture gives lots of pages to do that. You can select a verse from about 1200 pages, distort it, make an (unconscious) fallacy out of it and hence regain your mental peace. With several verses you can combine them in different ways creating all kind of fallacies. This is the way of the brainy guy.
The normal guy (which is not interested in intellectual things) only says that he knows that doctrine based on Sola Scripture is right because he is feeling it in his heart. This is the same argument of any other religion in the world. Of course, this is intellectually bankrupt because we should accept all the religions beliefs, which are mutually exclusive. But the guy is not that interested in intellectual coherence. He appeals to emotionalism.
Your conclusions do not follow logically from the premises.
For example, it does not logically follow that because you have multiple mutually exclusive explanations that there are no coherent or correct explanations. The most that you can conclude is that most are (of necessity) incorrect, but not all. You also have not considered that each position may have a few partial insights (though, on the whole, incorrect).
For example, nothing you premised establishes that revelation (or did you mean the book Revelation?) is useless.
For example, the prophecy and salvation are different categories of things. It appears that you have committed a category error.
If you decide to stick around, maybe we’ll talk more about this in detail in the future.
You know what THE GREAT BOOKS FOR MEN predict?
That ”rpgenius” ”leaders” will comfort & tell pretty lies to this poor poor(rich) ‘ole wimminz.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lifestyle-buzz/it-would-seem-i-m-too-ugly-her-reaction-to-sexism-is-inspiring/ar-AA1QNf9Z?ocid=winp2fptaskbarhover&cvid=a23d8dad11af450ea0ebc94080c25b67&ei=10
Cookinut, the creator of the culinary content platform followed by hundreds of thousands of people, regularly receives sexist comments on her social media. Her ironic response to these misogynistic remarks made a lasting impression.
The constant pressure on female content creators
Cookinut humorously and insightfully denounces the often absurd expectations placed on women on social media: to smile more, to be more glamorous, or to be “a total babe.” Despite her focus on cooking and sharing recipes, she finds herself confronted with inappropriate comments about her body, highlighting the pervasive sexism online.
Conclusion?
FOOL ”rpgenius” ”leaders” like to strut around talking $hit bout such as her ,but will simp goddess worship for such at the drop of a hat also.
THEY will really have to step up their game once this goes mainstream in the next few years too:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/MR3aMnB3wvU
My Heart Will Go On Celine Dion Titanic Theme
& they thought the DOA babes in DOA3,4 & 5 were a threat to them & their ”princess’s” special day huh?
THIS short(@28:37) ’92 MANOWAR song explains why DEREK & GBFM have slightly long posts & comments(as unlike ”geniuses” we actually have something IMPORTANT to say) to ”geniuses” that can’t get popular on their own false poseur ”merit”!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0AnLvPs6JE&list=PLBnJv6rImVe-kFxJ-LDKSrR2drGgAbOGV
Achilles, Agony and Ecstasy in Eight Parts
Lyrics
See my chariot, run to your ships
I’ll drive you back to the sea
You came here for gold, the wall will not hold
This day was promised to me
The gods are my shield, my fate has been sealed
Lightning and javelins fly
Soon, many will fall, we are storming the wall
Stones fall snow from the sky
We will pay with our glory in the fire of battle
Zeus, today is mine
Killing all in my way like sheep and like cattle
Smashing skulls of all who defy
I spare not the hammer, I spare not the sword
This day will ring with my name
None have to chase me, let he who will face me
Kill me or die by the sword
Oh, friend of mine, how to say goodbye?
This was your time, but the armor you wore was mine
I will not rest until Hector’s blood is spilled
His bones will all be broken, dragged across the field
This, dear friend, is how we’ll say goodbye
Until we meet in the sky
Here inside the walls of Troy, the gods weigh my fate
From this day do I abstain, to a memory of hate
To pay for all the blood that spilled, the many thousands I did kill
No walls can contain the gods’ almighty will
I hear the silent voices I cannot hide
The gods leave no choices, so we all must die
Oh, Achilles, let thy arrows fly, into the wind, where eagles cross the sky
Today, my mortal blood will mix with sand
It was foretold I will die by thy hand
Into Hades my soul descend
Cowards in the grip of fear, no valor to uphold
Cut into the earth, with honor long been sold
For all shall come to know me as they fall unto their knees
Zeus the Thunderer, control my destiny
When the cards of life were dealt my hand a ruthless fate
To avenge, and bringeth fury, Hector, feel my hate
A bloodbath I was born to bring, by birth I’m an assassin
To cut the cord of life and death ties to earth unfasten
Blood and fire death and hate, your body I will desecrate
Dogs and vultures eat your flesh, the Hall of Hades waits
Kill, kill, kill, kill-
Hector’s blood lies on the battlefield, his body’s mangled wounds
The gods who once protected him are now his gods of doom
Like a tower standing tall, steadfast in direction
I fall upon you bringing death, the gods give no protection
Coward in the grip of fear, no valor to uphold
Cut into the earth, with honor long been sold
For all shall come to know me, as they fall unto their knees
Zeus the Thunderer, control my destiny
Blood and fire, death and hate, your body I will desecrate
Dogs and vultures eat your flesh, the Hall of Hades waits
Die
The oath of the gods, this day was fulfilled
In the heat of the battle, Hector was killed
See him Patroclus, down in the dust
Rejoice in his death my symbol of trust
A dozen highborn youths, have been killed
Cutting their throats, their blood was all spilled
Their bodies set at the foot of your fire
With oxen, sheep and two of your hounds
Oh, oh
Oh, oh
Oh, oh
Your funeral Pyre high off the ground
Hector’s body dragged three times around
I will carry the torch to your funeral pyre
I will ask of the wind to send high your fire
Hector’s blood will not be washed from my body
Until your body is burned
A prophecy spoken, a promise fulfilled
More blood will be spilled, more will be killed
Oh, oh
Oh, oh
Oh, oh
PEACE & LOVE in the names of DEREK,ROISSY,MOSES,JESUS & GBFM!!
NOW?
”RPgenius” ”leaders” can create ”tradwife” ”redpill” churches(which DAL’ refused to do out of respect for Doug Wilson & to keep ”redpillers” from tugging on his d@ng everyday for help in their WEAK & PATHETIC lives)) to get MEN to wife up hos like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN7QBKAZExE
The Most Controversial Feminist Trend: The 4B Movement
AI video will force ”feminists” & ”RPgenius” ”leaders” to combine WICKED & LAWLESS forces in destroying MEN & western civ through divorce licenses or they will be left paying for ”prinesses” themselves as wife boss kicks their butt in court.
”redpill” tradwife owns & pawns ”RPgenius” ”leader” ”husband” again!
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/i80CI59JwCk
GREEDY Ex-Wife Gets butthexed By Judge as she butthexes.owns & pawns ”RPgenius” ”leader” ”husband” again !
i found a video of Jack interviewing a woman on sanctifying @n@l that destroyed western civ to his LAWLESS & WICKED mind’s delight!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnTU47JVOQc
Front door back door BEST ANSWERS EVER
THEN ”good guy” Jack & ”redpill” Doug wonder ”WHY NO DIVORCE LICENSES FOR MY DA DAUGHTERS?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=Gty18Tzpw2A
Why Aren’t Men Getting Married? | Doug Wilson
THEN ”redpill” Luaren Chen admits faux Christpillers(MOSES,JESUS & GBFM are the TRUE original CHRISTPILLERS)AKA WEAK & PATHETIC ”rpgenius” ”leaders” are wrong!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GohpLRbadOs
Andrew Wilson PROVES Why Lauren Chen & other ”rpgenius” ”leaders” are FEMINIST!