Back in 2018 there was a discussion on Wintery Knight asking “Is it the Man’s Responsibility to Pursue the Woman, or the Other Way Around?” It was based on a discussion raised by Saint Dalrock and Messiah Cane Caldo, who suggested that women are supposed to woo men. Dalrock had called the belief that men pursue women “erroneous” while Cane Caldo implied that there are few (if any) stories in the Bible where a man woos a woman. Prophet Thedeti joined the chorus.
Wintery Knight asked…
…and noted that I had provided examples of each type:
You can find examples of all cases in the Bible: fully arranged marriages (for Isaac), where the man pursued the woman (Jacob; Hosea), where the woman pursued the man (Ruth; Esther), and where both pursued each other or it wasn’t clearly stated one way or the other (Samson; Solomon). I would argue that pursuit (by either sex) is neither condemned nor encouraged. Each situation is different and there is no rule one way or the other.
But this list is not complete. There are many examples of men wooing women:
- Abraham’s wife is pursued by other men.
- Jacob pursued Rachel.
- Moses white knights for Zipporah.
- Samson almost certainly chased Delilah.
- Boaz pursued Ruth as much as Ruth pursued Boaz. Ruth did what Naomi told her to do and Boaz played a very active role. Boaz had to manipulate Ruth’s rightful kinsman-redeemer into letting Boaz marry Ruth.
- David pursued Michal, Abigail, and Bathsheba.
- Solomon must have pursued some of his wives, considering they captured his heart and he was a king who got what he wanted. It was probably mutual pursuit.
- Hosea pursued Gomer (a prostitute) and possibly raised her two bastard children.
- King Xerxes pursued Esther (she also pursued him, just in a different way).
- God’s pursuit of Israel and his church is an intentional metaphor with the marital relationship, husband pursuing wife.
Undoubtedly men pursue women. And, as noted, women pursue men.
Yes, Samson chased women. As Dr. Phil might say, how’s that working out for you
Potipher’s wife chased after Joseph and that ended poorly. It doesn’t logically follow that a bad match implies that the matching method is generally wrong. The Bible simply does not explicitly weigh in on this question.
We must not succumb to selection bias. The Bible is often focused on the moral outcome of situations, and so it tends to focus on exceptional circumstances while simply not discussing the normative relationships. If a hundred common men pursued a hundred common women, or a hundred common women pursued a hundred common men, we wouldn’t know. We’d only have heard about the exploits of David or Solomon.
Certainly honor is unintelligible to […] Derek Ramsey, and they are in the majority…The truth is on our side…put forward the same false ideas which have been put forth over the past few centuries.
In our discussion of 1 Timothy 2, I was lambasted for deviating from centuries of majority belief. This time it is for accepting centuries of majority belief.
“Standards are a’changing,
for an interpretation be a’needing.”
David was more concerned with honoring his king and advancing his own position
What about honor? The latter half of that statement is contradictory with the former. Rather than humility and honorable service to the king, he was in it for personal advancement using feigned humility. That’s creative theological innovation.
Consider Brother Earl’s reasonable, measured response: David honored Saul by killing more of his enemies. It was not for personal advancement. But he also desired a bride, since he didn’t have to marry to kill Saul’s enemies. His motivations were complex and not mutually exclusive.
I do not stipulate that women pursuing men is The Biblical Model for mating strategies.
If nothing else, at least we can agree on that.
1. At least there are a couple stories of women pursuing men to good ends for not only herself but her whole nation.
2. and that I can find no opposite.
So what? This is both an argument from silence and incorrect (see below). Benefiting the nation is curious, since few marriages can foresee such a possibility. By historical standards (the Biblical Model?) the “good end” for marriage is providing sons. Most cases of men pursuing women had this result.
The implication that a marriage is unsuccessful if it did not involve tingles is a modern invention.
I can’t think of an example of a man picking his spouse and it going well.
Moses’ life was saved by Zipporah and she gave him children. Rachel became the mother of the most important branches of the nation of Israel. I’ve argued that Boaz actually sought out Ruth and they were ancestors of David. David’s wife Abigail, whom he sought after, is a famed Jewish prophetess who gave David a son. Even David’s illicit pursuit of Bathsheba led to Solomon, who was undoubtedly a benefit to the whole nation, even when factoring in David’s punishment. Xerxes and Esther chose each other and that went well for them both. Even Hosea’s wife Gomer gave him a son and God told Hosea that he must love her unconditionally. I doubt tingles were much of a factor there.
NOTE: It’s been years since that comment was made and deleted. Since it was at Dalrock’s blog, I assume that Dalrock wrote it and later edited or deleted his comment when he realized he was wrong. Whatever happened, my quotation of that comment remained even when the original disappeared. In any case, whoever made that comment didn’t acknowledge his error publicly.
If that doesn’t prove that David was lovesick…
I’ve never arguing that David was lovesick or overcome by romance. Neither Courtly Love or the raised alternative are biblical. David doesn’t have to be lovesick to prove that men in the Bible pursued women and that it is perfectly fine to do so.
It is actually more difficult to show that women should pursue men. If anyone thinks I’m defending courtly love, then they don’t comprehend my argument. The Bible does show that men pursued women, possibly more than women pursued men, just not with the courtly love model.
I pulled this ancient draft out of my drafts folder because it’s interesting to see what the Red Pill was teaching 5 years ago. Regulars like Dalrock, Thedeti, Cane Caldo, and Wintery Knight asserted that the Bible clearly wants women to pursue men, that they must show attraction and interest or else their marriages will be garbage. But this is clearly not a biblical stance.
Five years later it becomes increasingly obvious how much of The Red Pill is based on what its proponents wish it could be rather than the reality of what it actually is.
They take this stance because women have always (assuming) have pursued them. They were just so masculine, so confident in their faith in Jesus, women just found that irresistible. All hot women mind you who were virgins, just wanted men to be providers / protectors and of course were very traditional and walked ten paces behind them…….
So, men…..let women pursue you. Its very easy. Be a confident christian man. Be a leader in the church, have a really good job / provision. If its not working you obviously dont have enough faith, have not prayed enough, are lazy and are blinded by blue-pilled thinking.
David took Bathsheba. Saw her on a roof, wanted that. Sent her husband to die so he could “get around the Law” and when called out “said he was (cough) sorry” and still had God’s favor.
The Red Pill interprets this behavior as normal and acceptable
If 10/10 Red Pill man “pursues” a woman, he’s a real man. If you pursue a woman, you’re a goddess-worshiping simp.
If a 10/10 Red Pill man is irresistible to women and they pursue him, he’s a real man. If a woman is interested in you, you’re a beta targeted only for your money.
Like claims of hypergamy, it’s all just elitism.
In general, that’s how it is. No matter what you’re doing. You’re doing it “wrong” (according to them)
Even if you do indeed have a good marriage. You are bragging or not telling the whole truth 😉
Red Pill in the end, seems to be a bunch of projecting men who really dont like women, or anybody for that matter….
It’s gotten to the point where if someone makes a claim about or against someone else that the first thing I do is assume that they are projecting. Usually when I check, I find it to be the case (as with Betty here).
“I pulled this ancient draft out of my drafts folder because it’s interesting to see what the Red Pill was teaching 5 years ago. Regulars like Dalrock, Thedeti, Cane Caldo, and Wintery Knight asserted that the Bible clearly wants women to pursue men, that they must show attraction and interest or else their marriages will be garbage. But this is clearly not a biblical stance.
Five years later it becomes increasingly obvious how much of The Red Pill is based on what its proponents wish it could be rather than the reality of what it actually is.”
Twelve years ago DALrock,Deti & Donal Graeme were certain Game, or more precisely its heavily watered down variant the ”red pill” was going to save marriage(DAL’ was somehow convinced what he saw his fornicating roommate in college doing with random gals)somehow helped him have an above average marriage to your everyday born and mostly raised in Germany, virgin(yes, DAL always said his ”gamed” wife was a virgin when he married her) at marriage, Christian school teacher wife. He wanted it to be TRUE since he saw tons of guys putting their faith in it and NOT CHRIST like he saw at his church lots of Faith in NFL Football, Prosperity Gospel, and MENZ UPPING & barely any in CHRIST,mom, Baseball,Apple pie I.E.America pre -1960s and tradcons in and out of the tradconnic ”redpill”osphere have the nerve to think of themselves as traditional Americans!!!
When did they last believe in mom or her famous apple pie?
Or watched the WORLD SERIES(”THE WORLD SERIES” as Ralph Kramden said in ’54 on a ”lost” Honeymooners episode)?
Yet they like liberal illegal opioid-taking modernist Rush Limbaugh call themselves (& even Sarah Palin in ’08”Traditional American”!?(when has Moose- hunting or being the Alaskan Governor ever been considered ”traditional” in the lower 48?)
BLASPHEMY & DECEICIETFULNESS!!!!!
EVEN DARE I SAY LAWLESSNESS!!!!
Also.
By historical standards (the Biblical Model?) the “good end” for marriage is providing sons. Most cases of men pursuing women had this result.
The implication that a marriage is unsuccessful if it did not involve tingles is a modern invention.
None of this really matters since ”Authoritarian” dads of daughters now know they failed in getting most young or old MEN to pursue their sports playing masculinized (to protect dad from losing the only gal that shows him love) daughters with MENZ UP speeches,” hey young dudes learn cool & tonz of p@on-getting game” and ”get high-paying jobs(rich dudes wives rarely divorce them as its usually vice versa like with elrushbo and Trump)”.
Now they are going to have to do WoMENZ up speeches,” Hey young hos start ”giving” more ”attention” to lonely nerdy ”potential” dudes that I told you were not worthy of ye before to protect my fragile girly ego, instead of letting Onlyhos galz get all their money and not you” or they will be responsible for paying for their daughters(this isn’t the main reason why a certain saint has left sf? Other than him objecting to the ED cult Pope wanna-be Brian Forbes AKA Jack Wayne wants to take over as it’s ”let’s just think positive & our daughters will marry rich (rich say it with me now)MENZ”?Deti knows game=”redpill” failed and so will that as that was basically what most churches & parents were doing during the 1970s to now.)
Marriage rates still going down, and the crisis is now hitting “average looking men” whereas before……..decade and a half ago, “average guys” still were getting dates so-to-speak. Some still are. Some are still getting married.
But a larger piece of this group is now high and dry like those “loser” Incels were a decade ago. This problem is getting worse, not better….despite all the info, Game, Frame, podcasts, going-to-the-gym talk, Red Pill going “mainstream”
Why?
Its not a simple answer but one of the problems is Game itself. When every man is “cocky funny” no man is, and thus the ante by women is pushed upward. Game responds (it always responds / caters to what women want) and now everyman has to look like a chiseled Greek statue and they (Red Pill) comfort you with “its pretty easy to do actually, gotta put the time in, you’re not a whiner are you? Women want this, and you need to step up!”
Its at the massive tipping point now that “looks” are the only thing that indeed matters for a large swath of the population now. Combine with online / app dating where a picture and a tiny bio. What do you expect? Women esp younger will go for the “hottest” guy. Doesnt matter if he’s “terrible” or not. She can get another one.
Scott mentioned offhand years ago “if I wasnt married, I’d be swimming in it” and he’s probably right. He also said “There comes a point with a man….all the Game, the classes, the books, the podcasts , practice, going-to-the-gym past a certain age just dont work for many”
And he’s also right.
A proper direction for Red Pill to take (one of them) would be to actually build friendships and mentoring. That wont happen because its easier to pontificate on a blog, give man-up speeches on YouTube and grift lesser men. When a man gets broken over this (and it happened to me…it hurts terribly, it almost took my life in the end) the only direction he can go is UP from there. I was always a loner so part of that was easier for me than a guy who was just better on all levels and then is struck with this.
Marriage is an elite thing now, and for all the claims about how these men run their marriages…….the best thing these men can do is to raise their sons and daughters the best they can to be ready / proper marriage material.
Many men like myself (and those younger than me) are going to have to figure it out with hobbies, career, and the like. There really is nothing Red Pill can do for them. They hate these men if truth be told.
It’s gotten to the point where if someone makes a claim about or against someone else that the first thing I do is assume that they are projecting. Usually when I check, I find it to be the case (as with Betty here).
You mean when a certain idol-worshipper of Dale Carnegie/Tony Robbins came here so many months ago and thought you might try to sales manipulate him instead of he ”who had read all the books & took all the classes?”
A proper direction for Red Pill to take (one of them) would be to actually build friendships and mentoring.
Yeah, my first real non-family oriented ”job” was selling Christmas ornaments in November and December on the sidewalk when i was aged 10-12.
i naturally found out that if you genuinely like people and have at least some knowledge in social skills & speaking you will do at least well enough in ”sales” as i did right off the bat.
That as you say is why too many churches and especially ”redpill genius leaders” fail as they don’t really like people or have social skills better than most jr high bullies have.