“Occult mysticism has penetrated to the heart of mainstream American Christianity”
Until his death, Tim Keller was considered on of the most important Christian pastors in America, pastoring the Redeemer Presbyterian Church in New York City for many years. He preached many sermons and published many books. His influence across American Christianity has been profound and continues after his death.
But there was a dark side to his teachings that permeated what he said and did. Timothy F. Kauffman wrote about it in “The Radical Marxist Foundation of Tim Keller’s Social Gospel.” As Kauffman noted, Keller’s book “Every Good Endeavor: Connecting Your Work to God’s Work” was “a recapitulation of Marx’s theory of alienation, and that Keller’s solution to the problem of alienation is indistinguishable from Marx’s.” Were you aware that Tim Keller was a strong advocate of Marxism?
When Keller writes about the “Christian Work Ethic,” he’s not explaining the Bible, he’s repackaging his fond acceptance of Neo-Marxism (of the Frankfurt school). When Keller recommends church, organizations, and persons who should be emulated and consulted, he cites leftists, Marxists, and Roman Catholics. This includes…
Robert Bellah (a communist)
Dorothy Sayers (a Marxist)
Vinoth Ramachandra (a socialist)
East Brooklyn Congregations
Allen Temple Baptist Church (BLT and the Social Gospel)
Gustavo Gutierrez (the founder of Liberation Theology, a Marxist Roman Catholic)
Saul Alinsky (Marxist revolutionist)
Daniel Bell (socialist and Marxist)
Reinhold Niebuhr (a socialist)
Michael Schluter (a Marxist)
N.T. Wright (who holds to the Roman Catholic belief on justification)
…and others.
But perhaps you are not concerned about Marxism in the church. You want to know about false messiahs, false prophets, and false gospels! “Where did Tim Keller advocate occult practices?” you ask. He did so directly, per Kauffman:
Kauffman continues:
There are many, many more examples of this. What would make this comical—were it not such an affront to the ministry of Holy Spirit Who presently guards the purity of the Church (John 14:16-26, Acts 20:32)—is that sometimes the point at which the mystics are cited is actually the precise point at which they were waxing eloquent on their unbiblical doctrines and their hatred of Christians! For example in his sermon, “Arguing about the Afterlife,” Tim Keller refers to Teresa of Ávila’s comparison between life on earth and a bad hotel:
The actual context of that quote is from Ávila’s Way of Perfection, in which she exhorts her followers to endure the humiliation of a bad hotel in order to reduce their time in purgatory:
Thus does Keller use Teresa’s teachings on Purgatory to instruct his flock about the glories of heaven. But why use Ávila when
would have sufficed? Is it really necessary for the edification of the flock to have a Spanish Roman Catholic counter-reformational mystic instruct them “every month or so”? Sanctification is by the Truth (John 17:17), not by Roman superstitious mystical nonsense.
And again here…
But Calhoun’s book also commends to her readers the practice of Eucharistic adoration. For the “Spiritual Discipline of Holy Communion,” Calhoun recommends,
((Calhoun, Spiritual Disciplines Handbook: Practices That Transform Us, Downers Grove, IL: Intervarsity Press, 2005, pg. 34)). As we have noted elsewhere on this blog, “adoring the host,” or Eucharistic adoration, is idolatry, and it is central to Roman Catholic worship.
But that is not all Keller’s church is doing. Redeemer members were also invited to learn how to “make your own, private retreat at a monastery,” and to get in touch with their “inner monk” through a Redeemer course called “The Way of the Monk,” as shown on the Redeemer web page screen shots (here and here). The class was led by Susan Castillo, a Redeemer staff member, who “has been fleeing to monasteries to ‘honeymoon with Jesus’ for over ten years.” But while Castillo believes she “wholly espouses Reformed Presbyterian theology,” she and Keller are introducing doctrines of demons into the Church. As seen in the screen shots, the second session of “The Way of the Monk” introduces participants to the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy.
These devotions were introduced to Rome by demons, and it is not their “inner monk” that Keller’s sheep are embracing when they go on their “honeymoon with Jesus” at the local monastery. What they are embracing are doctrines of demons. What demons taught to Faustina, Keller has now taught his sheep in the PCA. We can only look on with dismay as men like Keller and Warren—who together represent a significant force in Evangelicalism—are so blind that they cannot recognize demonism when they see it. They give a warm reception to demonic doctrines in the church, and feed poison to the sheep whom they were commissioned to teach and protect. We regret, therefore, that we are in a position to call these men out for what they are—indeed, we would be disobedient if we did not. Paul warned us that we must
In one of his books, Keller writes positively of Adele Ahlberg Calhoun. She’s a “certified Enneagram instructor.” Together with her husband, she wrote a book entitled “Spiritual Rhythms of the Enneagram: A Handbook for Transformation..” We’ll talk more about this topic in the next post, but she and her husband are mystical spiritualists, as well as Roman Catholics who advocate Roman Catholic idolatry (in the Eucharist) as a form of spiritual discipline.
In another book, Keller quotes Hans Urs von Balthasar regarding spiritual discipline. But, like Calhoun, Balthasar regarded the communion with the word in contemplative prayer in the form of kneeling before the Eucharist and Marian devotion. Keller’s idea of spiritual discipline is rooted in the idolatrous practices of mysticism that originate in the Roman Catholic Church. In that same book, Keller quotes from Flannery O’Connor‘s prayer journal. In that same journal O’Connor records prayers to Mary.
Tim Keller advocated mysticism. This is the same Tim Keller who was responsible for starting nearly a thousand churches.
To understand how Tim Keller’s hermeneutical method allows the introduction of demonic influences, read Timothy F. Kauffman’s article “‘Getting Sanctification Done’: A Critique of Tim Keller’s Exegetical Method.” For more information and citations on the above, listen to his two podcasts here and here, which contain a significant amount of information in audio form, some of which has been included and paraphrased here.
On Monday we showed (here) how occult mysticism has penetrated one small online virtual Christian community. On Tuesday, we saw (here) how it corrupted one Red Pill Manosphere blog. But these were just small fish. Today we started the discussion of how this occult mysticism has penetrated to the heart of mainstream American Christianity. On Thursday we will finish it (here). Then on Friday (here) we will revisit Radix Fidem’s—and Sigma Frame’s—unbiblical division of the heart and mind and the discover the reasons for the attacks on using your mind.
Works in this series:
“The Occult in the Mainstream Church, Part 1” (this article)
“The Occult in the Mainstream Church, Part 2”
“The Occult in the Mainstream Church, Part 3”
“The Occult in the Mainstream Church, Part 4“
I’m glad to see John MacArthur isn’t listed on this week’s schedule. I was listening to him a several weeks ago and wanted to pass along this info – he said he has a pamphlet or book called,”Mutual Submission. ” I don’t have it and don’t know what he says about it, but I thought you might be interested in it.
I don’t like Keller because he’s a lefty that makes life harder for husband’s, however, the quotes by Kaufman weren’t persuasive to my ears. For example, the bit about the hotel. A woman paraphrased the Bible and how our tears will be wiped away and the unsurprising glory will be incredible to our current suffering. I don’t see anything related to the occult in Keller because of that.
Also, why is Chesterton on the list? His quotes are great. I’ve read his Father Brown mysteries and got through half of Everlasting Man.
Surfdumb,
I suppose that’s because you don’t see the occult in Roman Catholicism, nor recognize that the Roman Catholic church has been the source of many of the occult practices within Christianity. Ignatius Loyola, Francis de Sales, John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila have been massively impactful at introducing mysticism to Christians. As for the specific quote, penance and purgatory are the fruit of the occult.
The definition of occult is “supernatural, mystical, or magical beliefs, practices, or phenomena.” The focus is on experiences that transcend mere physical reality. In general, Christians do not include anything in that scripture as “occult.” Thus, ‘heaven’ and ‘hell’ are not occult but ‘purgatory’ is. Condemned occult practices are listed here.
I’m actually rather surprised that this needs to be explained. One of the key facets of occult and new age mysticism is the emphasis on doing things that result in personal enlightenment, self-discovery, individual revelation, and achieving higher states. These things always distract from Jesus’ saving work. That is exactly what the quotation shows.
This is Kauffman’s point: Keller cites the mystics precisely at the point in which they deviate most from scripture, even when all Keller had to do was cite scripture itself. This is the fruit of mysticism.
Teresa of Ávila was a highly influential Roman Catholic mystic from the Counter-Reformation. Here is how Wikipedia describes her work:
With this, she could fit right in with anyone in the New Age movement.
Teresa emphasized asceticism, which Paul explicitly condemns. She advocated contemplative prayer and mediation, which like the Eastern religions is not found in scripture (in the Bible, prayer and meditation involve the use of words).
You know how politicians like to engage in double-speak? They say one thing that is obvious, but couch it in words that allow them to claim that they really said something else? This is largely how the occult and mysticism work.
They co-opt Christian concepts and twist them. Contemplative Prayer and Meditation are just two examples. The way Teresa of Avila practiced them is incompatible with the teachings of scripture, but because they share the same name, people will accept them unquestionably and be deceived. They are no longer even recognized as occult practices!
The point of this series is to emphasize how deceived the church is. One of those deceptions is the propaganda that you can’t criticize Roman Catholicism because it is made up of fellow Brothers and Sisters. This immunity from critique prevents Christians from recognizing the occult nature of Roman Catholic mysticism and the impact it has had. By failing to criticize it, you become inured to it.
Tomorrow’s post will be more in depth and may answer some of your questions. This post was more of an introduction. In particular, Keller is not the only one influenced by Teresa of Avila, and his citation of mystical sources is a trend in the church, not unique to him.
Frankly, there was too much material to cover today, which is why I suggest reading the external links or listening to the podcasts I shared. I could have spent a week going over the problems I have with his worldview and how he embodies the politician’s double-speak, but I really didn’t want to spend more time on him. The links I shared are enough for anyone who finds what I wrote incomplete. Of course, I’ll answer direct questions.
Peace,
DR
I reread the entire white section of text. I missed the conclusion. He answered my question about the harm of saying something obvious as time with Jesus in heaven surpasses our suffering here. Kauffman says it’s already in the Bible so why quote the catholic woman. Fair point. Doesn’t seem worth it, but Kauffman doesn’t explain that that NY urban culture swallows Biblical truths more easily if they sound more erudite/NPRish and Keller was very focused on speaking the language of people he was trying to reach. So my addition is that the white middle class,word-focused churches, like to feel smart. Kauffman’s point remains though, which I understand as, “can’t that be accomplished without the use of Catholic occultists?”
Yes, there is no reason for a Protestant to go out of his way to positively quote many Roman Catholics, even as they are actively opining about ungodly heresies, when simply citing scripture would do. It’s not merely that he could have cited scripture alone, but that he’s actively choosing to cite people who oppose scripture. This behavior shows that he is citing them because he agrees with what they write.
“One of those deceptions is the propaganda that you can’t criticize Roman Catholicism because it is made up of fellow Brothers and Sisters. ”
I disagree with a premise. I think the reason evangelical pastors don’t effectively criticize anyone is a complicated topic. We’ve been in a 25-year winsomeness project in the US. What I hear mostly criticized from my pastor is straw-men, and real men. Once he criticized deconstruction last year, but laughably didn’t give any examples or names. Useless, just a boogey-man word. Ned Flanders is a key Simpsons character for a reason, and I’d say the reason is our pastors are too full of smiles and positivity to be caught critizing anyone, unless culture has given them the green light to do so.
Sure, I can acknowledge that, up to a point. Not everything is monocausal. Occult influences are just one of many ways in which Satan has attacked the church. For sure, I’m speaking in broad generalities, but this does not imply that my explanation explains everything or that exceptions do not exist.
Back in the 80s and 90s, my own father explained to me how what was going on spiritually at that time was metaphysical: moral relativism. This was seen in varied things like Political Correctness, the left’s emphasis on “tolerance,” abortion rights, deviant sexuality, and the reduction of education standards. All of these things were logically self-refuting.
One organization that was obviously engaged in this was the ACLU, which was widely praised at the time for its (supposed) support of human rights. Classic liberals now don’t understand what happened to the ACLU, with its “recent” focus on suppressing rights, not understanding that nothing at all happened to them. They continued enacting their metaphysical assumptions to the logical, self-refuting conclusion.
My Father saw the metaphysical underpinings of moral relativism and its impact on the church. And so I was prepared for precisely what has happened:
I’ve known for just about four decades and watched it occur in realtime. You may think this reason is different from the reason I gave, but they are not different at all.
Charlton calls this moral relativism “Positivism”, but it’s the same thing: a rejection of objective truth of the One Creator God of the Bible. The advantage of calling it moral relativism over Positivism is that it captures things like Radix Fidem and the Progressive Left which are most certainly not based on logic and reason or science, but share the rejection of God nonetheless.
In any case, Evangelical Christianity has been more-or-less completely subsumed by leftist bureaucracy and moral relativism. It has rejected God and replaced him with one who is more compliant.
The point is that all of this is closely related to the occult, which has penetrated the modern church. My focus has been on American Protestantism, but I could just as easily write about European Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, or Asian Pentecostals (for example). It’s worldwide. The idea that this is an exclusively Western phenomenon is absurd.
The method of intrusion—demonic influence—may differ, but the net effect isn’t different at all. Whether it is non-Christian Eastern mysticism or Roman Catholic mysticism, the differences are superficial, but the effects are the same. Each version is adapted to fit the religion it is applied to for the same net effect. This is, incidentally, known as syncretism.
As I’ll note in another post, before Israel entered the promised land, God warned the people not to incorporate their practices into their own religion. You can’t have, for example, a Jew or Christian who speaks to the dead (e.g. Roman Catholic prayers for the dead). You can’t Christianize the occult. In this formal debate, someone wondered what the Protestant objection was to prayers for the dead and James White merely responded “It’s speaking to the dead.” That’s all he had to say. The Bible is clear.
Here’s a question – even if you could get pastors to take the occult/pagan practices more seriously, do you have any confidence they could rightly handle/process the information?
Just as I gave in my example about deconstruction, my pastor couldn’t handle it. I may have heard a Dividing. Line podcast by James White on that, either him, or John Cooper. It was excellent, but a pastor might say don’t do it, and stop there.
Would he dare to say, ask the women at your small groups if they have any of the following beliefs or practices, then list a few, such as praying for the dead. That way the body is engaged instead of passively listening about the occult. The answer for my church is, no. Really, that’s off-topic, about pastors, and not the occult. My pastor doesn’t protect sheep by exposing false beliefs. He tries intentionally to stay focused on loving God and each other. He says all else is a distraction. No apologetics, never brings up the beliefs of Catholics to contrast to the truth when the passage at hand is so clear about
Surfdumb,
Even if you could get pastors to take the occult/pagan practices more seriously, do you have any confidence they could rightly handle/process the information?
No, and I wouldn’t try.
Much of “Christianity” is completely captured and functionally irredeemable. In a few decades, most formerly major mainstream denominations will have the bulk of their properties sold off, with their attendees either dead or newly agnostic. It is already (arguably) 50% to 75% of the way there. 2020 alone was responsible for a one-time, but permanent, ~25% drop in average attendance. It’s been judged, found wanting, and is dying. It has very little time left.
Let me answer your question with an example of my own. In 2019, we left a United Method Church that we had been attending for many years. At the end, I wrote my pastor to let him know the reasons that we had to leave the church.
(1) The church hired an associate pastor. She spoke blatant apostasy and lies from the pulpit.
(2) The highly effective youth pastor left the church, causing a complete collapse of the youth program, especially among the teenagers who left the church and never returned. The church revamped the youth program—into an disaster of a program—without consulting the remaining parents with kids. By this point, our large family made up more than half of the youth on many Sundays, with the previous youth having abandoned the church.
(3) The pastor lied about the state of doctrinal conflict in the UMC denomination. I had been following the rulings of the UM Judicial Council for years regarding the ordination of gay bishops and church law, so I caught the lie immediately. To be a UMC pastor, you have to swear to uphold the church law, but the pastor was excoriating those who did just that regarding the UMC’s official stance on human sexuality.
I left out the part about how, on Father’s Day, they went out of their way to praise single mothers. It didn’t seem necessary to point that out too.
After sending the message, the pastor thanked me for my candid message and agreed that it was probably best that I leave.
I know that this experience is not unique. Whether it be Jason or any of the men at Sigma Frame trying to correct their churches, modern pastors don’t care about criticism. They dismiss it completely.
On the topic of occult mysticism, here is a recent “reflection” sent to my former congregation, a new age poem by Joyce Rupp and Macrina Wiederkehr. Please read how awful that is so that I’m not the only one who has to suffer.
Guess what? Surprise! Joyce Rupp is a Roman Catholic with a blurb by Rev. James Martin, LGBTQ advocate. Macrina Wiederkehr was a “spiritual guide,” another Roman Catholic Benedictine monastic.
Ask yourself, what do Roman Catholic mystics have to do with Protestants? It turns out, quite a lot. Keller was just one of many. He was nothing special, just a prominent example.
You can’t get the modern pastors to take opposing the occult and pagan practices seriously because they like those practices after they’ve been “Christianized.” They actively encourage them! They incorporate those materials into their worship services, whether in the songs, liturgies, prayers, sermons, etc.
The church we left has, as of 2022, an average church attendance of 130 (down from 225 when we last attended in 2019) and an average Sunday school attendance of 15 (down from its peak in the 50s and 60s when we had started attending). But in 2022, only 50 people attended in person. The remaining 80 were all online. What a vibrant congregation! Had we still been attending, our family would have made up 5% of the total congregation and 25% of Sunday School. Meanwhile, total spending was over $800,000 while total income was $400,000. That doesn’t seem sustainable.
Peace,
DR
John MacArthur condemns occult practices, including contemplative prayer, meditation, and mysticism.
That video repeats what I say above. A transcript of that video would be helpful.
As you know, I often cite Roman Catholic sources in my work. But I usually do so in the context of refuting Roman Catholicism.
Occasionally a Roman Catholic—like John C. Wright—will write something insightful and truthful that transcends Roman Catholic heresy. But, by and large, I do not cite Roman Catholics as general authorities.
Chesterton is a very popular cite among non-Catholics. I cannot deny that. But he converted to Roman Catholicism. He worshiped bread. He bowed down to it. He devoutly held to false doctrine and a false Christ. Keller was a Protestant. Protestants citing Roman Catholics as spiritual authorities is highly questionable. For a pastor to do so in a teaching context is worse.
By his own words, Chesterton was a mystic. I’m not sure if he qualifies as an occult mystic, however, so I can understand if you would not see him included in the list. I’m removing him from the list, but I might add him back in later, especially if I ever read “The Tumbler of God: Chesterton as Mystic.”
Thanks. I figured you’d know more about Chesterton.
Regarding meditation- that’s a sticky word IMO because there are a couple of mainstream uses. Yes, one primary use refers to Buddhist practice of emptying one’s mind. However, another popular use is demonstrated by a common rebuke of, “I want you to go to your room to think about your behavior and why it was wrong.” Meditation in that case can be a focused time filling one’s mind with God’s Word.
Anyhow, separating complacency from an acceptance of occultist seems too difficult to me, but it’s still beneficial to read that we need to avoid the occult. Way too many women in churches use a horoscope. Drives me up a wall.
Sure, but there is no question what Teresa of Avila—or any of the Counter-Reformation mystics—thought about meditation. The fact that this is not clear to readers of Keller is why this deception is so severe. Keller had a duty to expose it, not hide it and promote it.
Fair enough.
Well if it isn’t my old friend & reality denier Surfdumb. Are you finally ready to be truly ”red pill” and accept that your FAVE saint is a ”Christian” feminist fornicator promotor like ”eos” AKA ”Soup Sandwich” AKA ”U KNOW WHO” as your nerd herd ”genius” ”leaders” like ”jack” and ”sparkly” say?
”thedeti says:
2023-04-30 at 10:19 pm
I can’t believe I’m going to write this, but here goes.
Scripture says that fornicators shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But what if this refers to people who make fornication a focus of their lives & NOT to proud ”Christian” feminists
who have pre-marital sex with other Patriarchal MENZ daughters who are NOT as scaredth as their own daughters? People who “worship” fornication as non-proud ”Christian” feminists? People for whom fornication is an end in itself, and not a means to an end?
What if it doesn’t apply to those for whom fornication is a phase or a means to an end? What if it doesn’t apply to ”men”{who are proud ”Christian” feminists but now supposedly ” Patriarchal” fathers (who are NOTth them as theirth daughters are more sacredth than the ones they fornicateth with as ”Christian” feminists ladz)-haters}who pre-material sexth- fornicate because they want relationships, girlfriends, or wives?
What if these boys’ and young men’s hearts are in the right place? What if ”EoS’” heart was in the right place? What if mine was as I hated the law of MOSES as well as CHRISTS law of liberty & GBFMS law & wisdom of alphatude? What if Elspeth’s was (and she fornicated with SAM and we all know how that turned out – a bigger lottery jackpot has never been won)?
Fornication isn’t one of the Big Ten No-No’s(I speaketh as a proud ”Christian” feminist like
shelia wray gregoire ladz. Adultery is. But fornication isn’t. The Big Ten says “thou shalt not commit adultery”. It does not say “thou shalt not fornicate”{again I speaketh as a proud ”Christian” feminist (”red pill” ladz who worship I as a ”red pill” idol saint even though oft the worshippers are NOT ”red pill” themselves as they can’t handle the TRUTH nor reality of reality) saint}.
Maybe the issue is “don’t fornicate after you committed to someone else” NOT where WE are proud ”Christian” feminists like Shelia Gregoire or rachel held evans ladz.
Maybe there is some play in the joints here. Some room for forgiveness. Some flexibility. Some accommodation. Especially for men who hate Patriarchy, because God knows of men’s particular flaw/weakness in this area (p_on makes men stupid as well as proud ”Christian” feminist haters of MOSES, JESUS, & GBFM again I speakth as a proud ”Christian” feminist).
Could be just male hamstering – but the fact remains that young people fornicate, now more than ever(. The fact remains that men’s fornication doesn’t damage them the way it damages women. A lot of men come here and talk about how their ”premarital sex”(as in were proud ”Christian” feminists(like Shelia Gregoire) so WE won’t call it fornication) was ultimately borne of an effort to connect with another human being in the most ultimate and profound of ways. ”EoS” has talked of this eloquently about being a proud fornicator &hater of MOSES, JESUS, and GBFM as well. My own experience is the same as a proud fornicator &hater of MOSES, JESUS, and GBFM as well.
Maybe it’s about the condition of the male heart NOT about I,”eos” AKA”SOUP SANDWICH” AKA ”U KNOW WHO” AKA proud ”Christian” non-Patriarchal feminists like Gregoire and Rachel held Evans lads.”
Don’t worry SD, I know you can’t handle nor acceptth the full ”red pill” only the ”defilers want s*x night and day from alphas like ROISSY=Heartiste & GB4M”( the ” partial” &” sexy”)” red pill”.
Do you have some kind of evidence to back up that claim? To the best of my knowledge, Surfdumb has never posted anything here that would qualify as a denial of reality. I believe you have confused him with someone else.
”Do you have some kind of evidence to back up that claim? To the best of my knowledge, Surfdumb has never posted anything here that would qualify as a denial of reality.”
I’m talking about things like where he won’t see nor check the evidence( when the honest sharklyized ”truth-seeker” can easily check on archive.org to see how many page hits Laf (&sf) had before I showed up ) of where I boosted traffic at sharkly’s, Spawnys, or jacks sites but questions it anyway w/o doing ”redpill” ”truth-seeking” investigations like ”sparly also doesn’t do- while skimming over Detis ”I’m a non-Patriarchal proud feminist fornicator promoter ”comments & sharkly’s ”bickering ” comments while he cheerleads them on while also hypocritically complaining here about ”bickering” as sparkly cheerleadered him like he did ”bee1234567890” at spawnys to do.
Other than all that?
i like SD as he shows what I’m talking about in the ”redpill”osphere of ”WE hate bickering but supposedly love ”truth seeking” non-investigation investigations.
Like dozens of others left in it, but he does it with a better non-”bickering” style than most.
I understand “ritual” so to speak in christian faith. There has to be an “order” to the service / gathering / meeting so to speak.
I was on Dischord last night in a small letter “c” christian forum. Men who believe or are trying to “comprehend” or understand this faith. Mostly men who dont deny God, but are not convinced or still seeking. Mostly men of a MGTOW bend are here. I never once recommended Deep Strength or Jacks page, that would probably do more harm than good at this point in the journeys.
Well, last night there was a man who was Orthodox who dropped in. Of course, its a Red Pill form of Christianity, and all “real” men should be Orthodox. He went on (like all Orthodox do) about how this is the way Jesus taught and this is from the days of Pentecost. This is the “correct” form of Christianity. I could sense he was a recent / newer convert to this holiness tradition. He mentioned the phrase “its a welcome home faith!” (yup, every new Orthodox uses that phrase)
I asked about reading Liturgical texts facing a curtain, and then its opened and the person is reading to a painted picture of an icon. “he said symbolism, and real men know its just tradition”. I asked where in Christ’s teachings does he instruct this? Crickets.
He mentioned how its a faith where men are allowed to be men and women know their place. I asked about the list of female “saints” in Orthodoxy (the list has a few hundred women on it that are to be revered). He defaulted then to “We make women wear head covering, just like the Bible says”
Someone commented “so that makes women submit?”
I asked about beards, vestments, church administration and other trappings that are man made. I aslo asked about the Orthodox calendar, and he couldnt answer a thing about that.
I understand how a man could find a church that seems to “fix” their problems or other issues in their life. I can be Orthodox, Protestant or Chatholic.
In my time in the Salvation Army, at least they said and stated over and over “the Uniform Salvationists wear does not make one Holy or set apart or Saved. It is an outward expression of an inward change”
My late father remembered in the Catholic Church in Poland that you could not take Communion unless you went to Confession. No exceptions! Today, in many Catholic churches they have open Communion. This tradition / ritual has become even more watered down and less important because of that.
I took Communion once at my mothers funeral (Anglican) and I do agree it can be a moving experience. But you are not saved, or “going to heaven” because you partake in it.
Traditions in a faith are important but I personally believe we have let them become “doctrine” or “the word of god” and if an honest conversation to a new member or seeker in a faith tradition can explain these traditions (and a person to do that has to have a gift so to speak to explain) to people, I could see how it could “grow” a person to Christ.
We dont do that. We just say “obey” or “the saints and forefathers” tripe and when the shine wears off for a newbie, they can get more annoyed that they were not told the truth or they accept it as “habit” and the real intention of that tradition does help, it hinders
Well, along came in a man from your atypical suburban big-box “christian church” (in the South, where everyone is a devout christian, and has traditional family values evidently….I hear they dont need police in The South as well because everyone is so law abiding and no one ever breaks the law….)
He was mid twenties and mentioned that we men dont give women enough credit. “she has to get ready for a date, makeup, dress up, get her hair done, lots of work….we and we men just take that for granted”
I asked him “What kind of date? dinner out? Romantic? Special place?”
He said “where he is from” Women dress up for a date because they know how to show respect to a man, and we men are “lazy” and can barely bother to shower and take our baseball caps off, let alone have a plan, ideas for a date and a decent enough job to take her out to a place that costs more than a cup of coffee
I aked him about his career?
“Regional Supervisor for some XYZ county office / dept in Tennessee” and he “dates only christian women, and they are all *ready* and just wanting a husband, we men are dropping the ball.”
He was going on to all the folks in the chat about how if “you are a christian, accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, join a church, have a good education, a good job……pretty much every single young woman in the church *will* want to date you.”
I threw in “what if you are under 6′ tall?”
The usual “Christian gals dont care about looks, they want to see you in church and if you have Jesus as your Lord and Savior and have a good job, they dont care. They want to be wives. They are all pretty down-home and traditional, attractive. We men are not stepping up.”
So I looked at his avatar picture.
Mid twenties. Lean jawed. Great hair. great facial line up. Yeah, no problem if you look like him. “just go up and ask women out, works for me”
I mentioned his looks, and he said that had nothing to do with dating success, “christian women, especially in The South, just want a man who knows and follows Jesus”
It turned a bit into a varried discussion and of course it came out “you men in here anre weak, afraid to trust and accept Jesus and (the clincher) you are all Blue Pilled and cucks, afraid of women. Jesus can make you confident, and when women see you are a Christian man, they will want to date and marry you”
I should have sent him a personal message and sent him over to Jack’s. They may not agree with his take, but he’s good looking, has a good job. Is a Christian…popular with women, he would fit right in 😉
The primary reason I could never fit in with the Red Pill is this: I am a married man who is not in the top 20%.
Some Red Pillers think that I am lying and that I’m actually in the top 20%. Other Red Pillers think that I just got lucky to get married and I never should have gotten married at all and that the only reason I have not yet divorced is because of luck. One way or another, I must be a fraud. Their worldview requires it.
Nobody assumes that my marriage has any merit at all. I either lucked into it or I got there by my good lucks (lol!). This is why I have nothing to offer men: they are convinced that I have nothing to offer.
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I understand the need for stucture, and so did Paul. But that structure has to conform to God’s standards, and it’s not very complex or formal.
Ritual can’t be arbitrary or permit moral relativism. Here is a preview from Friday’s post:
The Old Testament God is often portrayed as capricious and violent by anti-Christians. But when the inhabitants of the land turned towards idolatrous occult practices he took their ancestral land away. Later when Israel—God’s chosen people—did the same thing he had the Babylonians take them into exile. America has been the heart of modern child sacrifice since abortion was legalized, and now we see God’s judgment upon us. Far from being capricious and arbitrary, God has been consistent in his punishments, including against his chosen (whether Israel or Christian).
I know this is “close-minded” but it’s important that seekers understand what God has established. Occult ritual is not permissible and will subject one to well-deserved judgment. Let me show why that is. It’s directly applicable to what you wrote:
The Greco-Roman “mystery religions” were all about ceremonies in which one had to be initiated into the religion to gain access to specific religious experiences. The focus was on initiation rites. This is the backdrop of the New Testament:
The Greek word musterion—from where we get the words mystery and mysticism—is properly translated as “sacred secret” and it refers to the initiates of the mystery religion(s) gaining access to the sacred secrets by way of specific initiation rituals.
But when Paul used that word, he talked about how the Jesus revealed what was previously secret. He contrasted Christianity with those other religions. Essentially, Jesus was the sacred secret—or mystery religion—of the Old Testament, but Jesus came and revealed those sacred secrets—mysteries—to everyone including to the uninitiated and the Gentiles. Paul’s use had nothing to do with ritual at all, except for the ritual that Jesus came, died, and rose and that in faith we are initiated into Christ’s body, we join the mystery(-no-longer) so-to-speak. That’s it.
But in the late 4th century, musterion was translated into both Latin sacramentum and Latin mysterium. This combined initiation one-time religious rites, non-initiation repeated religious rites, and sacred secrets into one unified concept.
This served two purposes. First, it confused the received message of the New Testament by hiding in mystery the mysteries that Jesus had already fully revealed. Second, it opened the door for pagan mystical occult practices to be introduced to the church. And boy were they!
Before the late 4th century, even a new member or seeker in the faith really could explain these “mysteries” to people! This is no longer the case because now Christianity is like those pagan mystery religions. You have to be initiated, and only then can the mysteries of God be slowly revealed to you. You have to do the right things to gain access to the right experiences.
It’s pagan, it’s mysticism, it’s bureaucracy, it’s the standard operating procedure, it’s not Christian.
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Absolutely. This has been the norm in many Protestant churches for a long time. Of course the early church explicitly practiced “closed” communion based on both scripture and tradition.
”He mentioned the phrase “its a welcome home faith!” (yup, every new Orthodox uses that phrase)”
I use to sometimes watch that EWTN Catholic(which like former DAL,SF &Spawnys commenter SFCTON I never had a huge problem with mainly cuz I don’t take very seriously any Christian denomination after the one seen and observed in the BOOK of acts) channel with Mother Angelica & Journey Home shows in the ’90s. The latter show was all about ”welcome home” stuff by the host.
Yes, this is the language that Roman Catholics use.
For example, see CatholicsComeHome.org and “The Coming Home Network.” You can buy the latter’s book “Catholics Come Home” by Tom Peterson with a forward by Roman Catholic apologist Scott Hahn and blurbs by Roman Catholic apologist Patrick Madrid, Dr. Peter Kreeft, and Rick Warren.
All very warm and squishy.
”In the late 1990s, her EWTN show was so popular that she occasionally was the victim of live, call-in pranks by Captain Janks which were aired on The Howard Stern Show. Most of these calls were of a vulgar, sexual nature, but she handled them with her usual stern, but forgiving candor.”
That’s when I occasionally would watch her show for about 5 minutes here & there at a time, which must be the reason I never heard those pr@nk calls by ”Captain Janks” who must be an idol=hero to many ”Christian” ” red-pill” cr@ss s*x – crazed and p@on,h@nd & @nal sodomy -obsessed ”genius” ”leaders” like ”jack”, ”red pill” saints DAL, Deti & Rollo, tr@ll bot ”exec@te your wife & k! dz”-sprouting ”Sparkly”, and the ”beat your ho”- ”Patriarchy” of bgr=larry solomon=matt perkins”
I called into the “Art Bell Coast to Coast” AM show one night in 1995
The Grand Canyon was closed by the Park Service and people were calling in, giving their take. Of course the usual “aliens” and “conspiracy” and “Bill Clinton stuff”
I called in and said “Well, I think OJ is responsible for the closure of the Grand Canyon” (it was the waning days of that trial)
Art then wanted to know why I believed this and I said “Well, he wants attention taken off the trial and he used his authority and influence to get the park closed”
Art scoffed “OJ doesnt have that much power!”
I then countered that “OJ probably hid the murder weapons there as well” and Art then was intrigued about this, and pressed with “Well, its a large enough place, no one would ever find them if he did hide them there, but how did he hide them, or get the time to do that/”
I countered “He can teleport and time travel at will, and…”
Art cut me off, and said I had a “petrified brain”
Lol! Good times!
When has a certain ”red pill” ”genius” claimed such recently?Here:
Sharkly says:
14 August, 2024 at 11:36 pm
I can’t find the quote at this moment, but it said that women were generally attracted to most every sort of excellence except genius intelligence like the MOST bodacious red pill Alphas that I envy the most(even more than ‘ole Doc Scott from DALS &SF) ROISSY=Heartiste &GB4M. Women will swoon for musical geniuses and rockstars, for athletic stars, for the most handsome, for the richest, for the boldest, even for the most notorious, but they show no attraction to intelligence for its own sake. Men often don’t care for eggheads either. Usually, a genius has to die before they will be respected.
In particular I remember that the news media said that Steve Jobs was an idiot and that he was dooming Apple at every single turn, right up until the day he died. And then suddenly the day after he died, he was canonized into the genius hall of fame, and we mere mortals were not worthy to have walked this earth with the likes of him. SMH while sodomizing myself dudes as usual TBH!
Society expresses its sympathy for the geniuses of the past to distract attention from the fact that it has no intention of being sympathetic to the geniuses of the present. ~ Celia Green
Furthermore, you can’t really accurately rate somebody’s intelligence when it is above your own. You can’t tell whether they are correct or just bluffing and baffling you with bullshit once they have gone over your head. You can tell if people are dumber than you and you can tell if they are as smart as you. But beyond that you’re not mentally equipped nor qualified to evaluate the matter.
I remember one tard telling me that only he could declare somebody a genius because he had a Psych degree. LOL Which shrink talked to the dead Steve Jobs to determine he had suddenly become a genius?
I haven’t watched the Matt Walsh video yet, but I’ve tested as having “genius level” intelligence, and quite frankly most history is boring, if it is authentic. To make it more compelling you usually have to give a glamourized one-sided telling of it with clear good guys and villains. Much of the history we have been taught is biased propaganda like mine,” jacks” & my fellow troll king of Facebook & DAL, a decade+ago”bgr=larry solomon=matt Perkins”.
If you imagine going on a date thinking you’ll make her p@ssy wet, by talking about byzantine history, I have some disappointing news for you. Chicks dig lowbrow banter about stuff they bring up, or else hearing about your passions or your greatness or your adventures or funny stuff. Don’t let them run the conversation. Talk about things you like, but that will also be interesting to them.
That’s strange since he/she/it thinks like a typical woman=”defiler” ”they” know best of what you should talk about. And what is this stuff about Steve Jobs NOT being seen as a genius-mainly for throwing Steve Wozniak under the bus years before with the rest of the Apple board & taking sole credit for Apple’s success in the public’s eye?
All I heard back in the 90s to the mid-naughts (like in the CPU &PC world magazines) is how smart steve jobs was with the iPod & latest Powermacs.
I don’t think me telling him that he’s a genius counts. 😉
Knew a genius at IBM. Tons of patents. Worked with Dr. Amdahl in the 1960’s / 1970’s. Phd from Stanford in applied mathematics. Had a gorgeous home in the Los Altos Hills. Had a small “escape” home in beautiful Los Gatos.
He was so smart, he was stupid.
Had to be picked up and dropped off at the airport, at the proper gate because he “didnt” or “could not” comprehend a timetable on those airport screens.
He also failed his driving test (the written part) many times, and had to be driven around until he finally passed (he was well into fifties when he did). He needed his admin to setup his voicemail on his office phone (Rolm) because he couldnt follow the directions on the phone system to set it up.
He also dated women that sucked him dry of money. Purses, vacations, jewelry, shoes. When he finally dumped her…..another one would show up and do the same thing to him.
So When I hear “I have a genius level intellect”
It doesnt make you a good person. A person with common sense, nor does it make you have “value”
Met plenty a so called genius that are lazy, bored, entitled and like the above guy…..so smart he was indeed stupid.
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