Headship Is Still Not Authority

This is part of a series on patriarchy, headship, and submission. See this index.

Over at the Christianity and Masculinity blog, Deep Strength writes in “Headship is still authority in marriage Part 3:”

Headship is still authority in marriage, Part 3
Ironically, I don’t think I’ve ever gone over in the Bible where head(ship) is mentioned. As I noted in Headship is authority, Wayne Grudem not only went over the Bible but all other Greek literature to see where head is defined as authority vs other options and it’s overwhelmingly in favor of authority.

Ho boy!

I recently did a topical 10-part series on mutual submission, focusing specifically on Wayne Grudem’s word studies on hypotassø and kephalē. I suspect that Deep Strength has not read the series, even though I responded specifically to Deep Strength’s comment in part 8:

Comment by Deep Strength
I’ve never seen DR post any backed research like [Wayne Grudem’s] exhaustive study on the word [kephale].

Deep Strength is a big fan of Grudem’s work, and he is popular among conservative Evangelical Christians. Yet, after I had discussed Grudem’s ‘exhuastive’ academic work on hypotassø (‘submission’), I shared, in part 7, this comment by Grudem’s intellectual sparing partner, Richard S. Cervin:

Richard S. Cervin
I do not wish to cast aspersions of Grudem, but the quality of ‘scholarship’ which he exhibits in his article is so poor that I can only draw two conclusions: either he has deliberately misrepresented the facts, or that he is so blinded by his ideological position on women that he is incapable of seeing the facts as they are. I am inclined to the latter conclusion, and it seems to me that Grudem has come up with these examples simply because he wants them to mean ‘authority over’ or ‘leader’ so as to bolster his interpretation of Paul.

And I concurred:

In my analysis during this series, I have come to the same conclusion: Grudem is not engaging in rational debate, nor in many cases are the people who quote him. To put it not-so-gently, Grudem is engaging in propaganda.  I’m convinced that Grudem’s relative popularity in the Manosphere is due almost entirely to those citing him because he confirms their biases, rather than on the merits of what he argues.

I also would not normally cast aspersions on another writer like this, but Grudem’s examination of the Greek literature is clearly poor scholarship. The errors he makes are obvious and egregious. Deep Strength’s defense of that ‘scholarship’ represents poor discernment on his part. More than likely, Deep Strength—like Jack @ Sigma Frame here—has failed to critically examine Grudem’s work because he was already in ideological agreement (i.e. confirmation bias).

In case you think I’m merely engaging in hyperbole, let me assure you that I am not. Over the years I’ve cited many scholars who hold viewpoints that I disagree with. It is my preference to cite the sources of my ideological opponents in order to show that those opponents are wrong using their own sources. But usually those sources are at least somewhat credible. This is not true of Grudem.

I’m not going to reexplain the problems with Grudem’s word studies, as I’ve already done so in the series. Regarding kephalē, I’ll merely cite the conclusion of part 8:

Grudem’s citation of these seven lexicons leaves much to be desired. He has vastly oversold their support of his claim. Next, when we then look at some of the examples that Grudem cites, it only becomes more clear that Grudem’s proof is speculative and overblown.

This is as generous as I can be. Deep Strength’s conclusion above is fundamentally flawed because it is based on a flawed word study. In short, contrary to his claim, the Greek literature overwhelmingly disfavors the definition of kephalē as connoting authority.

Deep Strength continues…

Headship is still authority in marriage, Part 3
Therefore, it would also behoove us to look at the examples of where it’s used in the Scriptures in the NT aside from an actual physical head. Here’s all of the examples in Paul’s letters.

…by citing the following passages: 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Colossians, 1 Peter, and the Gospel of Matthew. Let’s take a look at them and evaluate Deep Strength’s arguments without assuming that Grudem is correct.

For those who do not know, there is no word in Greek for ‘headship.’ The word in Greek is just ‘head.’ Headship, or properly hierarchical leadership, is one of the meanings of the English and Hebrew words for ‘head.’ It is not the meaning of the ancient Greek word. Reading Paul’s use of ‘head’ as ‘headship’ is an anachronism. It is, by and large, taking the English meaning and applying it to the Greek word as if the two words in two different languages shared the same meaning. They did not in the ancient Greek and they still do not even in modern Greek.

1 Corinthians 11:3-10
But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered disgraces his head. But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is one and the same thing as having a shaved head. For if a woman will not cover her head, she should cut off her hair. But if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, she should cover her head. For a man should not have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God. But the woman is the glory of the man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for the sake of woman, but woman for man. For this reason a woman should have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.
Deep Strength
Though this passage is on prophesy, Paul goes back not only to Creation Order but also indicates that head coverings and hair symbolize being under authority.

This is known as the head-body metaphor, which I’ve previously written about here, where I show that the metaphor did not connote being under authority.

The metaphor is formally known as the ‘Head-Body Metaphor’ because there are different metaphorical uses involving the word ‘head’, such as Head-Feet and Head-Tail. These metaphors all use the word ‘head’ but the meaning of each metaphor is different. Obviously this means that the use of the word ‘head’ does not solely determine what the metaphor means, nor does the metaphor determine what the word ‘head’ must mean. This seemingly simple observation trips many people up, as it does Deep Strength.

Notice that Deep Strength claims that hair symbolized “being under authority.” But that’s not what Paul actually said: “symbol of authority on her head.” The reason Deep Strength didn’t simply repeat Paul’s words is because it isn’t clear from those actual words how you arrive at Deep Strength’s interpretation, especially in light of the entire context of the passage (which is about prophesy).

Scholars and theologians argue over what Paul meant because his Greek language use is ambiguous, unclear, and unusual. In fact, this passage is one of the most contested passages in the entire Bible due to its lack of clarity on multiple points. There are many different competing explanations for what Paul meant, and it is not clear which of the many options is the correct one. You can read one such analysis in “Hair Is A Covering,” where I illustrate the difficulty. This lack of clarify is why Deep Strength didn’t quote Paul’s words, but instead paraphrased them according to his predetermined theology.

This is also not a modern problem. In the late 4th century, some in the church began to argue as Deep Strength is doing now. John Chrysostom, a native Greek speaker, argued that this new view violated basic reason:

For had Paul meant to speak of rule and subjection, as you say, he would not have brought forward the instance of a wife, but rather of a slave and a master. For what if the wife be under subjection to us? It is as a wife, as free, as equal in honor. — John Chrysostom, Homily 26, 1 Corinthians 11:3

According to Chrysostom, Paul could not possibly have been referring to authority in the sense of hierarchical rule. Notice that Chrysostom understands Paul to be worried about honor not authority. That’s because in Chrysostom’s day, the word still implied the former, even as it would slowly change to the imply the latter in the medieval era.

Later in that same Homily, Chrysostom noted that it was not until after the fall of mankind that rule and subjection were in view. Consequently, Deep Strength’s association with the “Creation Order” cannot possibly necessarily imply authority. Indeed, such an explanation is deeply suspect.

Deep Strength’s explanation is, at best, speculative, so we’ll leave it at that.

Ephesians 1:19
…and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
Deep Strength
I included the prior verses for more context, but it is fairly clear here that Paul is talking about Jesus’ dominion and authority over death which also extends to his authoritative headship over the Church.

Recall about how I indicates that Deep Strength gets tripped up over the various metaphors involving the word ‘head?’ This is an example of the Head-Feet metaphor. This specific use in context, regarding Jesus’ authority, is unambiguously about authority. But this tells us very little about other uses of ‘head,’ including other metaphors involving the word, such as the Head-Body metaphor.

But notice that when Deep Strength says “Paul is talking about Jesus’ dominion and authority” he knows this, not because of the metaphor, but because Paul used those actual words. Paul didn’t rely on the metaphor to imply rule, authority, power, and dominion, Paul used those words specifically and explicitly to describe Jesus.

This is important because it doesn’t establish that the word ‘head’ by itself means authority. For example, just because two words are used together in the same paragraph does not imply that they are semantically related (e.g. ‘death’ and ‘head’).

No Christian takes issue with Christ’s authority, which is the topic of the passage.

The issue is with Deep Strength’s speculation that Christ has authority because he is the head, a position that is not proven by this passage. Alternatives include (1) being the head because he has authority; (2) being both, and separately, the head and in authority because of a third causal factor (such as God’s appointment); and (3) being head completely separately from being in authority, as causually unrelated, but merely simultaneously existing, attributes. All four of these options are logically possible.

Deep Strength is trying to stretch the passage past what it is obviously speaking about, in order to justify is doctrinal presuppositions. That’s the issue I have with his approach. He makes it seem as if all you have to do is quote and read the passage in order to determine which of the four options is correct, but this is simply not true.

In summary, there are three reasons why we might conclude this passage is about authority:

Primary: because Paul explicitly uses words for authority and rule.

Secondary: because Paul uses a Head-Feet metaphor.

Tertiary: because Paul uses the word ‘head’.

These are listed in descending order of confidence, with the first being unambiguous, the second going either way, and with the third being mostly speculation. But remember that Deep Strength cited this passage in order to show that the tertiary option is the correct one. He clearly cannot establish this conclusion on this evidence alone. He would have been better off not citing this passage at all, rather than falsely portray his speculation as if it were more definitive.

Ephesians 4:14-16
As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
Deep Strength
Paul refers to the head here in the context of fitting and holding together and directing the body. No direct references to authority though at the very least seems implied.

Here we return to a Head-Body metaphor, which is notably different in context and tone from the Head-Feet metaphor. Unlike the latter, but just like 1 Corinthians 11, this lacks explicit references to rule, authority, power, and dominion. So even though the word ‘head’ is used for both metaphors, the sense is different.

We simply disagree that authority is implied. Unless one presumes so, there is no indication of authority at all in this citation. Deep Strength is seeing what he wants to see, not what is actually there. This is the same thing that Grudem did in his word studies. It is poor scholarship.

Ephesians 5:22-33
Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.

Deep Strength
It is clear that wives are to be subject to their husbands and husbands are referred to analogously as the head of the wife as Christ is head of the Church. That appears to be authoritatively in the passages we have looked at so far. Husbands are commanded like Christ in Ephesians 4 to work in a synergistic manner with their wives.

Deep Strength begins his citation of Ephesians 5 in v22. As I’ve pointed out many times in the past—including five different times in the series alone—this is a sentence fragment that lacks a verb in the original:

the wives to the husbands as to the Lord

Citing v22 without v21 is nonsensical and ultimately changes the meaning of the passage from the original. It is highly dishonest to snip a sentence fragment out of context to try to establish an entire theological doctrine. Indeed, very nearly the entire concept of ‘headship’ falls apart if one merely quotes the sentence in full. I wrote about this deception in detail in “The Original Source Material.”

Deep Strength’s obfuscation of the passage hides the fact that the reference to ‘head’ is in the context of mutual submission. The English word for headship—implying a strict hierarchical authority leadership structure—is fundamentally incompatible with mutuality, which is why v21 is almost always left out of the quotation.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Deep Strength
Again, Christ as the head of Church is denoted in the context of the passage to be authoritative.

Did you notice that, like Ephesians 1, Paul associates the word ‘head’ with the word ‘dead?’ Should we conclude from this that death is commonly associated with headship? Obviously not. For the same reason, neither should Deep Strength conclude that ‘head’ is commonly associated with ‘headship.’ Much of Deep Strength’s speculation comes from failing to recognize that correlation does not imply causation.

In any case, this passage contains the Head-Body metaphor, but it also contains explicit references to thrones, dominions, rulers, and authorities. So as before, we have three reasons why we might conclude this passage is about authority:

Primary: because Paul explicitly uses words for authority and rule.

Secondary: because Paul uses a Head-Body metaphor.

Tertiary: because Paul uses the word ‘head’.

As before, the primary use governs our understanding of the passage. The other two explanations are much more speculative. But unlike the Head-Feet metaphor, there are many uses of the Head-Body metaphor that do not imply rule and authority, so we have lower confidence to justify the secondary explanation compared with the Head-Feet metaphor. We have even less confidence in the tertiary explanation..

We agree with Deep Strength that the passage is about authority. That is the only conclusion we can draw that does not involve speculation. But remember that Deep Strength cited this passage in order to show that the tertiary option is the correct one. He clearly cannot establish this conclusion on this evidence alone. He would have been better off not citing this passage at all, rather than falsely portray his speculation as if it were more definitive.

Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
Colossians 2:16
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
Deep Strength
The first instance in Colossians 2 again refers head in the context of over all rule(rs) and authorities. The second is much like the Ephesians 4 passage where Christ is the head and supplying his strength to the body.

Regarding the second example, we agree that it is similar to Ephesians 4. As we stated there, the connotation of authority is not implied by ‘head.’ There is nothing else to say that we did not already say regarding Ephesians 4.

Regarding the first example, let’s refer back to the four options we gave above:

(1) Christ is in authority because he is the head.

(2) Christ is the head because he has authority.

(3) Christ is the head and he is in authority because God appointed him.

(4) Christ is, separately, the head and in authority, at the same time.

As before, Deep Strength can’t be dogmatic about which of these is correct, but he needs the first to be the correct one in order for his ideology to work. But, in fact, we know from the New Testament that the third or fourth option is more likely the correct one: for God gave Christ his authority and arguably made him head over the church (maybe Jesus did this himself?).

Regardless of which is true, all Deep Strength has is speculation. But remember that Deep Strength cited this passage in order to show that the ‘head’ implies authority. He clearly cannot establish this conclusion on this evidence alone, as there is too much ambiguity. He would have been better off not citing this passage at all, rather than falsely portray his speculation as if it were more definitive.

Its worth clarifying that being ‘head over authority’ does not imply that head means authority. That would beg-the-question that head means authority. Paul didn’t say “authority over all rule and authority,” he said “head over all rule and authority.” Whether or not these are equivalent is the very thing under debate, and so cannot be presumed.

Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.” When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.
1 Peter 2:7
This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “The stone which the builders rejected, This became the very corner stone,” and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
Deep Strength
The word corner stone is termed kephale stone and is a quote from Psalm 118. This is Jesus referencing Himself to be the Messiah which is obviously authoritative to the Jews.

Oof! That’s some cringe-worthy false equivocation there!

The word “cornerstone” is literally translated “head of the corner.” What made a cornerstone the head was because it was first.

The reason a cornerstone was a cornerstone is because it had to be cut precisely at 90 degrees, lest the foundations attached to it cause a divergence that results in an out-of-square building. It was the foundation in the sense that it was the most important, not because the other stones were built on top of it. Indeed, once a house was completed, the cornerstone looked just like any other stone. The cornerstone didn’t stand out for its appearance or inherent differences from the other stones. It’s importance was in being first, and consequently its cut was most important.

The sense of the word ‘head’ here is clearly in its firstness or greatest import, not its authoritativeness. This firstness carries the sense of preeminence, of status rather than authority.

Remember above when I wrote that that ‘head’ was associated with death? I used that example to highlight that tying words together arbitrarily is not good scholarship. There is another word that is associated with Jesus being the ‘head.’ Jesus is repeatedly called the firstborn in the New Testament. Indeed, in Colossians 1 (quoted above in the context of ‘head’) he is called the “firstborn of all creation”, “firstborn from the dead,” and has “first place in everything.” Christ is called the head because he is first.

Recall too how in 1 Corinthians 11, Deep Strength notes that Paul harkens back to the order of creation (in v8-9), regarding men and women, concluding that Paul was concerned with authority. But Paul is not talking about authority, he is talking about order: who came first. Indeed, when Paul wrote to Timothy in 1 Timothy 2 he emphasized that Adam was formed first.

The cornerstone—head stone—is important is because it is first. It sets the literal framing for the building that follows.

It is completely unnecessary to assign the sense of authority to ‘head’ when firstness (and its near synonyms) adequately explains it. This lack of necessity, combined with the historical fact that the meaning of the Greek word connoting authority is medieval, is why each and every time we have examined Deep Strength’s analysis, we have found it to be speculative. Calling it speculation is a more polite way of calling it eisegesis.

Deep Strength
I believe I caught all of the variations referring to head(ship). All of the other references to head are an actual head.

This is the same conclusion I made when I did my review of these verses. The vast majority of references to kephalē refer to a literal head. This is also true, by the way, of the Old Testament’s use of the word ‘head’ in Hebrew, even though that word can connote authority.

When the Old Testament was translated into Greek in the Septuagint, the Hebrew word for ‘head’ was only rarely translated as ‘head’ in Greek when the source passage was clearly about authority. The majority of the time a different Greek word was chosen. So rare is the translation of the Hebrew ‘head’—meaning ‘leader’ or ‘authority’—into the Greek kephale (at most, arguably, 4-6%) that it indicates that this understanding of kephale must have been mostly (or even completely) unknown in the Greek-speaking world.

 ************************************ 

Let’s pause to emphasize this. In 95% of the instances of the Hebrew word for ‘head’ where it means ‘leader’ or ‘authority’, the Hebrew-to-Greek translator chose not to use the word that is supposed to be—according to Grudem and others—more-or-less semantically identical. Should we believe that translators, faced with a word in the target language that had an exactly equivalent definition to the source word and chose not to use that word in their translation? This, to put it mildly, defies reason.

 ************************************ 

This makes Grudem’s citation of Septuagint lexicons in favor of kephale as authority—and Deep Strength’s concurrence—especially ironic. It’s actually a good example of why it is an error to treat a lexicon’s ‘definitions’ as prescriptive, rather than merely descriptive. It is another example of Grudem mistaking correlation for causation.

Deep Strength
Therefore, aside from arguments from Creation and Genesis, headship-submission in the marital passages, and others which are convincing on their own, it appears that any time NT authors refer to head(ship) in Christ it is a directly authoritative position. Obviously, this authoritative position needs to be used by the husband in marriage in a godly manner – Godly authority vs Gentile authority — but it also rules out mutual submission and other feminist arguments.

Deep Strength’s conclusion is essentially just speculation. I’m not even willing to grant that its use in the New Testament implies authority even in its appearance. Without importing the English meaning of the word back into the Greek text, there is little-to-no reason anyone would make Deep Strength’s conclusion. It’s not even there in appearance, let alone in actual fact.

In the late 4th-century, portions of the Greek-speaking word began to selectively accept the connotation of authority alongside the other previous meanings. John Chrysostom is one example of a native speaker who balked at this change. But by the medieval period, the forces of language development (see: “Changing Language“) were enough to retcon scripture to turn ‘head’ into ‘headship’ (to use the English parlance). Without this retconning being applied, there wouldn’t even be the appearance of authority, just as to this day there is no appearance of connoted authority in the words for ‘dead’ and ‘death’ simply because Paul used those words in passages about authority.

Deep Strength is correct that mutual submission and headship are mutually exclusive, but he is incorrect about which one is original and which one is anachronistic. I can, and have, cited various historical proofs showing that the historical meaning of ‘head’ did not connote authority. I can, and have, demonstrated how this development happened over time.

I can, and have, cited the complete sentence in Ephesians 5 to show that mutual submission was Paul’s explicit topic. I have never been obligated to cite sentence fragments, nor to add to scripture various words, punctuation, paragraph breaks, or section breaks in order to explain this. So when I look at the sentence in Ephesians 5…

(v18) And don’t get drunk with wine, which leads to reckless living, but be filled with the Spirit:

(v19) speaking to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs

(v19) singing and be making music with your heart to the Lord

(v20) giving thanks always for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ

(v21ff) submitting yourselves to one another in fear of Christ, wives to their own husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, being himself the Savior of the body.

…I see mutual submission described as a general principle alongside a specific example. When I see the sentence fragment…

Wives to their own husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, being himself the Savior of the body.

…I don’t see authority or anything else, because the resulting ‘sentence’ is nonsensical. Yes, I could go deeper into the weeds of grammatical analysis, word history, and language study in order to develop a refined understanding, but the point is that Deep Strength’s view is nonsensical unless he does that. My conclusion requires no slicing-and-dicing of the sentence, nor does it require any acrobatics beyond basic reading comprehension.

I can, and have, made many arguments—for mutual submission and against headship—that do not depend heavily on dogmatically embracing specific speculative options to the exclusion of other possibilities.

I have never insisted that others must agree with me or emulate what I teach regarding marital ‘submission’ and marital authority. Indeed, this is a repeated source of frustration for others:

Jack, 'Pompous Pontification' @ Sigma Frame
As an insightful point of comparison, Ramsey refuses to state that he has authority over his own marriage, although this is one area in which he might truthfully do so.

My axe to grind is searching for and sharing truth, not proselytizing. It’s up to each man to decide and choose for himself what he will believe. For this I have repeatedly been called a feminist, and worse. But, what activist feminist has ever refused to proselytize, given the opportunity? Indeed, those who criticize me are the ones who seem most interested in proselytizing the wayward.

Consequently, I have no problem with Deep Strength’s speculation. He’s entitled to his views. Despite all the evidence I’ve presented and the lack of evidence that he’s brought to the table, he could nevertheless be correct. That is not my issue. What I have a problem with is his portrayal of scripture as something other—more—than what it is. These passages he cites do not establish what he wishes they would show.

8 Comments

  1. professorGBFMtm

    Update from our old(as in kixxing around 13+ years in the ROISSYosphere) saintly friend who is still not at SF but only at Spawnys.

    thedeti says:
    9 August, 2024 at 4:36 pm
    Now is the time for women to start dating, fuxxing, marrying, and procreating with, these nice kind good Christian men they say they want but clearly don’t want.

    thedeti says:
    9 August, 2024 at 4:42 pm
    No one wants to talk about the real problem of NO NO NO more Alpha Fux-Beta Bux in the MENZ room at the local club ladz over the last decade or so.

    I saw a video from CNN with RINO/faux conservative/banjo boy Joe Scarborough wannabe Mike Smerconish talking to some marketing professor named Scott Galloway, about the problems facing men today. His “fix” for the problems facing young men is “more money for college, low-cost but ‘decent’ butthext, and cheaper housing”. Galloway wants men to improve so they’ll be “better butthexting citizens” and so women can get married, have kids, and have loads of sanctified( as ”jack” says) butthexting.

    No one wants to talk about the real problem: male disposability sans lots of Alpha Fux-Beta Bux in the MENZ room at the local club.

    Women don’t want these men. Women don’t want any men but the top 20% men. These men could improve themselves to peak, and women still won’t want them. No one wants them. Society doesn’t want them. Women don’t want them. Their own families don’t want them. Their governments don’t want them.

    People like tradcon Galloway simply want to use and exploit these young men for their own ends – so women can have future ex husbands they can use for fiat paper money and then leave behind their dessicated husks, and so government can bleed them dry as America dies.

    Fux that whack bulls#it ladz.

    And hi, MOSES, JESUS, GBFM, and Derek – I know you’ll be talking about this at Derek’s bold, brilliant, and vastly growing old-school ROISSYosphere ”bring us the galz with dem large, pretty & natural puppies”(as Jerry Lawler would say on WWF commentary circa 1999 lads) site.

    But of course! Few-very few in the Roissyosphere are quite as interesting as the Saint Deti!

  2. professorGBFMtm

    A March 2015(Ten years ago this coming March DAL even did a post on this back then) update on what the saint above was talking about i.e. the legendary but widely misunderstood in its original context of ”dating”= mostly ‘sanctified’ s*x in MENZ rooms in Da clubs)AFBB=Alpha fux-Beta Bux was talking about above already being noticed at the time by Miss Ying Ma here:

    Men Who Don’t Pay
    Ying Ma | 9:35 AM on March 23, 2015

    We live in a society where lots of men do not pay or be butthext.

    IOW?”TO PAY OR NOT TO PAY FOR BUTTHEXT IS THE QUESTION FACING FAR TOO MANY MENZ TODAY(Y’ALL)”!

    Not only do they fail to pay or be formally and properly butthexted of, by, and for the women with whom they go on a date, they increasingly do not even pay or allow butthext for themselves in their behind.

    The men afflicted with this syndrome tend to be young, and are usually under the age of forty. Those who suffer most severely tend to be products of the nation’s top universities or respectable urban workplaces—where political butthext correctness and leftwing ideology regularly trample over concepts such as s*x-based chivalry and honor. At these institutions, the worst thing that could happen is to be perceived as racist, sexist or homophobic. Being a weasel that does not pay is not considered a source of embarrassment nor need to be properly butthext sans mercy being shown in the least.

    The occurrences of such male wussiness of being butthext in modern society are too numerous to detail, but just a few examples can shed light on the nature and extent of this trend.

    Example 1. A Stanford Law student in his mid-twenties declined to take his date to dinner, claiming that he had been “eating too much lately & passing mucho badz gas.” Just the evening before, he met her at a dinner party at her apartment, where he was not at all deterred from eating the food that was available in abundance for free. He does not hail from a poor family, but on his date, he shelled out only $2.50( a more pittance for ”sanctified” butthext as any gal or ”redpiller” knows ) for an ice cream cone for the lady and then quickly got to the point: to secure what young men usually want from women e.g. a quick BUT hot & heavy game of Mario Kart: Double Dash on the nearest available Gamecube brah!

    Example 2. A 35-year-old captain in the Air Force met his date for happy hour at a sports bar. His date ordered a beer at the bar before they sat down at a nearby table. Later in the evening, when the waitress presented the check, he studied it intently and asked his date if she had already paid for her own drink. She said no, and reached for her wallet. He insisted, “I got it.” As it turned out, her beer, which cost no more than $5, was not even included on the check. He was a graduate of Columbia University who eagerly defended President Barack Obama and compared his nine years of service in the Air Force to indentured servitude under his government’s ”headship”.

    xample 3. A man in his late thirties met a lady for a drink at a crowded establishment in New York’s Nolita district sans proper or acceptable Alpha Fux or Beta Bux. She arrived early and bought a drink at the bar while looking to score at Mario Kart: Double Dash. When the man arrived, he, too, ordered a drink, and suggested relocating to the restaurant’s outdoor patio. The lady suggested he settle his tab first. He shrugged, said, “[the staff] will find us,” and walked outside. The busy bartenders did not notice that their customer had left and never bothered to look for him outside, and the man never paid yet beat the woman’s pick of Princess Peach easily. At the time, he served in a senior position at the Department of Commerce.

    Though the men described above had been educated at the nation’s top universities or were professionals who worked at respectable institutions, none had any qualms about behaving without chivalry, courtesy or decency. The reason? Their attitudes are widely shared by their contemporaries across the country.

    The sad reality is that too many of America’s institutions of higher education—with the most elite universities being the worst culprits–have ceased to value character nor the speed of Yoshi’s go-cart as they instead pick Mario’s gocart or even the truly pitiful Toad dude in his slow go-cart. Instead, through speech codes, mandatory sensitivity to butthext training sessions, and insidious ”say NO NO NO to being ”properly” butthexted ladz” brainwashing from faculty and administration, students are taught absurdities, such as identity politics and Obama worshipping.

    Then numerous employers in the real world—especially fancy law firms, rich investment banks and major technology companies—eagerly foster the same absurdities through professional initiatives.

    Those who emerge from this environment know that anyone who dares to criticize Obama’s failed policies would risk being called a racist, and women who dare to deviate from feminism’s preferences would risk the fury of femi-Nazis. For instance, Ann Romney, the wife of former GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney, was, despite being an impressive and well-spoken woman, ridiculed by a female Democratic strategist for being a stay-at-home mom.

    No one in this progressive world sees any dishonor in men who do not pay. In the leftist paradigm, chivalry is out-of-date anyway. Men who mature under these leftist teachings–conservatives, liberals, moderates and independents alike—gladly excuse themselves for not having to fork over extra dollars. Without cultural norms that discipline or elevate standards of behavior, they happily do away with the nuisance of respect and courtesy, and resort to seeking from women what men have always eagerly sought: sex. Certainly, the modern woman can choose to split the check with her date or even pick up the entire tab as she sees fit, but the lack of honor is not about the woman’s ability to pay; it is about the man’s unwillingness to do so.

    Paying does not lead to a man who will not lie and cheat and certainly not to one who has no flaws. But the increasing number of men who wiggle out of this simple gesture of butthext under the disguise of a time of war ethics does mean that women–especially highly educated women—are left facing a dating scene that is openly crass and disrespectful to proper forms of butthext.

    Thankfully, plenty of men in the modern era still pay the butthext toll. They range from older gentlemen who hail from an era that emphasized values, to younger ones who were raised by families that continue to uphold norms long abandoned by the university or the modern workplace. They also range from those who engage in professions that are intrinsically tied to honor—such as the military,”MEN” who are ”professional” submissives of butthex and law enforcement—to those who live in parts of the country that still believe in an etiquette code for sanctified loose moralz.

    Of course, even men who fit these descriptions can fail to step up to the plate, as Example 3 from above demonstrates. Which is why it helps to have cultural mores of an earlier era of sanity that define what constitutes honorable behavior and what does not. America’s urban, progressive, bicoastal elements have declared themselves too good for something that leads to an old-fashioned butthext-what a d@mn shame if ya ask this babe, but as modern life demonstrates, when sex-based chivalry and honor die, nobody wins the go-cart race of life ladz and lassess.”

    When did I know how bad ”MENZ NOT ”ethically” paying for ‘dates”’ was really getting?

    In August ’09 when the FOX radio national news reported on McDonald’s raising the price of their large fries cuz too many ”intelligent” MENZ admitted to surveyors that they were using that for cheap butthext dates.

  3. professorGBFMtm

    Update on our FAVE Saint of all saints in the ROISSYosphere in connection with Ying Ma & Alpha-Fux/Beta-Bux/AFBB above!

    thedeti says:
    9 August, 2024 at 6:59 pm
    So that this is clear, I am NOT saying women are required to have sex with or marry men they don’t want or are not attracted to. By all means, women: If you don’t want these men, don’t date them, don’t fux or butthext them, don’t marry them, and don’t have their children.

    But don’t lie about it. And don’t complain about it either.

    Galloway and his ilk think we need to throw money at men to get trained for jobs, low-cost but decent butthext and to help them get their own housing. His barely-concealed motive is that these men need jobs, money and housing so they can…. get married to women who aren’t attracted to them and give their money to women who will divorce rape them.

    What he hasn’t considered is this:

    Why should young men get jobs, ‘decent’ butthext, and housing if they aren’t going to marry women who don’t want them and won’t have children who’ll be taken from them? Why should young men get jobs,’decent’ butthext, and housing when they are fully aware these women don’t want them? Because the jobs,’decent’ butthext, and housing make these men more “economically attractive” (read: women will marry them to butthext ’em and take their money SMH while ”keepin’ it rizzle dizzle homiez” like saint DAL in the old ”zenith” days of mid-Summer 2012- end of (DAL &) Summer ’15 my ladz!?

    The entire reason people like Galloway want men to do this is so they will marry women who will later divorce them and steal their money. Young men know this. And… I suspect Galloway knows this too as he butthhexts the night away ladz.

    Liked by 5 people

    thedeti says:
    9 August, 2024 at 7:15 pm
    What bluepill tradcon Galloway and his ilk, and most women, are really complaining about is their knowledge that young men are onto them & non-‘decent’ butthext is un’sanctified” g-damnit.!
    They’re on to the game & satanic butthext. They know their fathers and men of prior generations got massively played, used, exploited, and fuxxed over.

    And they’re determined that that’s not going to happen to them.

    Galloway, and women complaining about where all the good men are: The jig is up. They’re onto you. They know their fathers, uncles, and bosses got played. You can’t play them.
    You can’t fux ’em over nor butthext’ em raw dawg –style tradconnic lads &lasses.

    You can’t take from them if there’s nothing to be taken tradcon dip$#itz yo!!

    Well, ladies: Now’s the time for you to step up and woman up and start doing the dirty jobs(like ‘ decent’ butthext) men will no longer do. Now’s the time for you to start doing trades work, sewage and sanitation(like sanitary engineer ED NORTON did on the HONEYMOONERS), and line repair. Start running the assembly lines, driving the trucks, and making the trains run on time. You best start growing things, making things, fixing things, moving things, and selling things, because young men won’t do it. Young men won’t make money just so you can lie to them and then take it and divorce rape them as ye relentlessly butthext them in the public square.

    We need food, water, housing, medical care, sanitation, and electricity. Get to it, ladies.

    What are your orders, “Captain” with no headship authoritah ladies!?

  4. professorGBFMtm

    Zlolzzzlollzzzzz

    Today Bruce Charlton’s post explains Western tradcons in particular & ”red pill” ”Christian-MANosphere” tradcons in general.

    Saturday 10 August 2024
    Q: Why can’t Western nations “mind their own business?” A: Because they have no business to mind.
    Sensible and common-sensical people from places like the USA, UK and France will often wail: “But why can’t we just mind our own business?”

    Meaning, why are we intervening/ interfering abroad; when so much needs to be done to sort-out our affairs “at home”?

    This, especially, when it comes to engaging in wars on behalf of nations with which we have no treaties; or intervening to replace the rulers and change the way of life of… anywhere we fancy, anywhere in the world… for as long or as short a period as is convenient to us.

    But the simple answer is that we cannot mind our own business because we have no business to mind.

    For instance; what, exactly, is the business of the UK?

    (I don’t mean to ask what our business should be, but what our business actually and currently is?)

    To which we can only say – there isn’t anything At All: No actual business… Not so far as the people who run the UK, and their obedient managerial-state minions are concerned.

    At least, there is no positive business…

    The fact is that our rulers (e.g. in politics, finance, mega-corps, and the mass media) are already sorting our our affairs “at home” in just the way that they want it sorted.

    That is: they are replacing the native population with immigrants and encouraging hatred between them; they are destroying the economy and the environment; and have already captured and corrupted the military/ legal system/ policing/ education/ health services/ churches.

    Their home “business” of civilizational and social destruction is going very well, therefore they are “minding their own business” – i.e. the business of destruction; so (from their perspective) they are free to engage in similarly-destructive foreign adventures to their hearts content!

    Posted by Bruce Charlton at Saturday, August 10, 2024 ”

    SEE how he succinctly explains why the ”red pill” ”genius” ”leader” tradcons in the sphere attacked MOSES, JESUS, and GBFM starting in December 2021 cuz they knew their sites{like DALS’ poor pitiful site was after he(who was being cheered on by his mostly loser ”red pill” tradcon audience) that largely deserted him afterward when they knew how bland, generic & boring his site really was w/o MOSES, JESUS, and GBFM to keep it interesting } banned them for their boldness, beauty, goodness & immense Alphatude in ’15}were over without MOSES, JESUS & GBFM at them anymore!

    Zlolzzzlollzzzzz

  5. Lastmod

    Went out with about six DJs I know last night. Three of them are married and have been for ten years or more. None of them are men of faith.

    It was a “boys” night out. We met up a small cocktail lounge and just talked for a few hours. All the married guys (ages 40-30) did check in with their wives when they got there and then called them when we all called it a night and and we all went home.

    None of the married guys were hitting on women. All of the married guys had their wedding bands on. All these married men were hip and fashionable. All of the married men were fathers. These are not “world famous DJs” none of them were particularly well off. Like most people who were born and raised here, they have inheirted grandma or grandpas house and dont have the worry of “saving for a house”

    I know their wives, they come to shows they spin at. None seem to be harpies. None wear head coverings. None seem to have that RFB (resting b*tch face). They just seem to be happy for their husbands hobby or profession. All of us DJs have regular jobs. Josh (who is married) is the only one who makes a full time living as a DJ.

    Lots of talk about their kids (that is where myself and the other childfree men had to be just polite listeners), no one seemed upset or worried about their marriage. None of us were hit on or appraoched by women last night….and a booth filled with seven men aged 53 (me) down to Stephen, age 24.

    It was a hip cocktail lounge done in a cool vide of the late sixties. It wasnt a flip-flops and tee shirt kind of place…but it wasnt formal evening wear either. Our table was laughing, high fiving……we were the livliest table in the lounge.

    All the men who were married didnt seem to have any of their “authority” challenged by their wife. No calls or txts of “come home now! / who are you hitting on? / send me pics right now so I can see if you are telling me the truth!!”

    Will admit, the married men were “better than average looking guys” but I didnt hear any talk about “the gym” and “how many girls they banged before they got married”

    We talked music, DJ equipment, some sort-of dirty jokes. FUnny shows or situations we were in. After a few hours we all went home. It was just a night where we the DJs didnt have to play music, and just had a good time out.

    Not one of the married men asked me questions about my lifelong bachelorhood.

    I did mention MGTOW once……and one of the married men said “Oh yeah, I was MGTOW too before I met my gal. Its normal now. When I was a teenager, I thought men like you Jason were strange. You’re not. Most women are”

    A good night out. Really good Bossa Nova and sixties lounge played in the background on the in house system.

    So…..are these married DJs cucks? And blinded by “blue pill” because they didnt self proote how red pill they are??????

  6. Pingback: Mysticism and Headship

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