Mutual Submission, Part 5

This is part of a series on patriarchy, headship, and submission. See this index.

Mutual submission can seen in the following observation: it is good for husbands and wives to be humble, respectful, courteous, kind, loving, deferential, honoring, and understanding towards each other, aiming towards unity. Any marriage in which either husband or wife fails at this is not one characterized by a submissive attitude. It isn’t about authority or roles, whether equal or not.

There are two primary, but related, issues at the root of the biblical grammatical argument on submission.

The first issue is whether or not the Greek middle voice is equivalent to the English active voice.

The second issue is whether or not submission always refers to submission to authority. If it does always refer to authority, does that hold for all instances of the word, including the active, passive, and middle voices, or just some of them?

As we discussed in Part 1 of the series, Wayne Grudem’s position a clear affirmative on both issues:

Grudem
When we look at the word that Paul used when he said “submitting to one another” in Ephesians 5:21, we find that this word (Greek hypotassø) in the New Testament is always used for submission to an authority. Here are some examples:

In order to validate his claim, we need to look at the examples. All 38 of them.

The Father and the Son

12 of the 38 references are found in four closely related passages:

1 Corinthians 15:27-28

27 For…

he has put in submission[1] all things under his feet.
— Psalm 8:6

But when it may be said that…

all things have been put in submission[2]

…it is clear that God—the one who having put in submission[3] all things to the Son—is not included.

28 And when all things shall have been put in submission[4] to him, then also the Son himself will be put in submission[5] to him that, having put in submission[6] all things to him, God may be all in all.

[1] Aorist Indicative Active — 3rd Person Singular
[2] Perfect Indicative Middle/Passive — 3rd Person Singular
[3] Aorist Participle Active — Genitive Masculine Singular
[4] Aorist Subjunctive Passive — 3rd Person Singular
[5] Future Indicative Passive — 3rd Person Singular
[6] Aorist Participle Active — Dative Masculine Singular

Hebrews 2:5-9

5 Not for to the angels did he put in submission[1] the inhabited world that is about to come (about which we are speaking). 6 Instead, someone has testified somewhere, saying,

What is man, that you think about him? Or the son of man, that you care for him? 7 You made him a little lower than the angels. You crowned him with glory and honor, and set him over the works of your hands.8 You have put in submission[2] all things under his feet.
— Psalms 8:4-6

Now in putting in submission[3] all things to him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things having been put in submission[4] to him. 9 But we do see Jesus, who has been made a little lower than the angels, and now has been crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death on behalf of everyone.

[1] Aorist Indicative Active — 3rd Person Singular
[2] Aorist Indicative Active — 2nd Person Singular
[3] Aorist Infinitive Active
[4] Perfect Participle Middle/Passive — Accusative Neuter Plural

Ephesians 1:19-23
That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God put into submission[1] all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

[1] Aorist Indicative Active — 3rd Person Singular

Philippians 3:20-21
20 But our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body so it will have the same form as his glorious body, by the power that also enables him to put into submission[1] all things to himself.

[1] Aorist Infinitive Active

All of these are used in the strong active or passive sense. The active sense is of a subject putting a target into submission. The passive sense is of an target passively being put into submission by an active agent.

The wider context is the prophecy found in Psalm 8. The prophecy and the narrower context of the words surrounding the verb we are examining (‘submit’) both indicate that rule is being discussed. Status is also indicated by both contexts.

Another three references are found in two other similar passage in scripture:

1 Peter 3:18-22
For Christ also suffered for sins once—the Righteous One on behalf of unrighteous people—in order to bring us to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive by the spirit, in which state he also went and proclaimed his victory to the spirits in prison, who were disobedient in the past, when the patience of God waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being built, in which a few people—that is, eight souls—were brought safely through water, which also symbolizes the baptism that now saves you (not the removal of dirt from the flesh but an appeal to God from a good conscience) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God with angels and authorities and powers having been put in subjection[1] to him.

[1] Aorist Participle Passive — Genitive Masculine Plural

Peter rather plainly echoes what Paul wrote in the four other passages above.

Luke 10:17-20
17 And the 72 returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject[1] to us in your name.” 18 And he said to them, “I saw the Adversary falling like lightning from heaven. 19 Look! I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and you will never ever be hurt by anything. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject[2] to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

[1] Present Indicative Middle/Passive — 3rd Person Singular
[2] Present Indicative Middle/Passive — 3rd Person Singular

This one does not discuss Psalm 8 directly, but rather discusses how the various authorities—demons in this case—are subject to Christ (and to church by way of Christ). This seems related to what was described above. As in those cases, authority itself is the explicit context (“…in your name” and “I have given you authority to…”). As above, by the power of the name of God, the demons are made subject to Christ and his followers. This joins the verses above with the strong active and passive senses: subjecting and being subjected to, respectively.

What do all of these—15 out of 38 references—tell us about the two open issues? It is clear from the context outside of the word ‘submission’ that the passages are discussing authority. This provides more than enough positive evidence of Grudem’s claim that ‘submission’ is associated with authority.

That said, the passages would still be associated with authority even if a completely different verb had been used. There are two reasons for this. The first is that authority is mentioned explicitly, so regardless of the verb choice, authority would still be the topic. The second is that the subjects being discussed are the Father and the Son. Both possess divine authority by their very nature. So we must be careful not to read too much out of this association.

Let’s demonstrate this with a practical example:

And the 72 returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are afraid of your name.”  And he said to them, “I saw the Adversary falling like lightning from heaven. Look! I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and you will never ever be hurt by anything. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are afraid of you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

Notice that if I replace a few words of the paragraph, the passage is still about authority. Does that mean the meaning of the verb “be afraid” implies an association with authority? Of course not. It is not enough to show that some passages are associated with authority, Grudem’s claim requires that he show that all passages are associated with authority in such a close knit way that the word itself implies authority. That is a very high standard, and these references so far are not enough to adduce such a claim.

The association with authority is only with the active and passive forms of the word “submit.” We have yet to see any examples that use the middle voice before we decide if Grudem’s claim is correct or not. We will examine those below later on.

We also need to examine how the word is used in more than discussions of this single topic before we can make broad conclusions about its standard usage. So let’s continue next by looking at the other passages of scripture where the word is used in the context of authority.

Subject to Rulers

Romans 13:1-7

Let everyone be subject[1] to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to be subject[2] to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

[1] Present Imperative Middle/Passive — 3rd Person Singular
[2] Present Infinitive Middle/Passive

Titus 3:1-2
Remind them to submit[1] to rulers and to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, to defame no one, not to be quarrelsome, to be reasonable, showing all meekness toward all people.

[1] Present Infinitive Passive

These are the only passages of scripture where ‘submission’ is explicitly used in conjunction with—an specifically about—rulers in government. As with the topic above, the subject of the passage is those in authority and this would be the case even if a different verb than ‘submission’ was used. But as above, undeniably, the word is associated with authority.

One wonders why Paul had to say “submit to authority” if “submit” always refers to authority. Seems redundant?

In Romans the middle voice is a possible grammatical interpretation. Since one of the uses is an imperative, it behooves us to ask if and how this usage is different from the active/passive forms we first examined above. However, the English translations above—”let be subject” and “be subject”—are used in passive form. But if the passage were translated as if they were in the middle voice in the original, it would read more like this:

Romans 13:1-7
Let everyone submit themselves to the governing authorities…Therefore, it is necessary to submit yourselves to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Can you see the difference?

When translated as an active/passive in English, there is a clear delineation between the party giving commands and the party obeying commands. Active agency rests entirely on the one ruling over those who passively obey. When the New Testament authors discuss Psalm 8, God takes on this active rule and the world passively accepts it as it must, without agency. The one being ruled is ruled absolutely because of the authority of the ruler. There is no choice in the matter.

But when translated reflexively (in the middle voice) in English, the agency moves from the ruler to the one submitting themselves. This makes more sense of what Paul is saying. To avoid punishment, for example, one must follow the laws. Notice that the one doing the submitting is not submitting because of the authority of the ruler, though that certainly exists, but because of something else: avoiding punishment, conscience, duty, respect, and honor. Authority plays, at most, an implicit role.

To summarize, in the active/passive voice example, submission is given directly because of authority. In the middle voice example, submission is given indirectly (relative to authority): the authority is incidental (or implicit) to the point being made.

Implicit in this usage is that if Christians didn’t want to pay their taxes, they could choose not to. Presumably some Christians were using their newfound freedom in Christ to do this exact thing! They were not compelled by governmental authority. But, because they’d suffer the consequences and for God because he wouldn’t like it, Paul tells them that they should nevertheless submit in these situations. Yet, elsewhere, Paul confirms that we must always obey God rather than man. Paul does not tell us to submit to governments merely because of their authority.

Put another way, Christians have the authority to choose to obey their rulers and/or God. They should submit, yes, but they decide when and how to submit. They submit in ways that are proper, not merely because of authority.

ARGUMENT NOTE: Grudem’s translation, the ESV, treats these as if they are in the passive voice, not the middle voice. He can’t conclude that the middle voice implies submission to authority if he doesn’t think it is in the middle voice.

Subject to God

There is another class of verses that use the term ‘submission’ in the context of God.

Hebrews 12:9
Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more shall we be in submission[1] to the Father of spirits and live!

[1] Future Indicative Middle/Passive — 1st Person Plural

James 4:6-8
That is why Scripture says:

“God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.”

Subject yourselves[1], then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you.

[1] Aorist Imperative Middle/Passive — 2nd Person Plural

Romans 8:5-9

Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit[1] to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

[1] Present Indicative Middle/Passive — 3rd Person Singular

Romans 10:1-4

Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit[1] to God’s righteousness. Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

[1] Aorist Indicative Middle/Passive — 3rd Person Plural

The English translations are divided on these passages. A majority translate the indicative passively (here, here, here) and the imperative reflexively (here), but it is not unanimous. I’ve used that convention here, but it’s a subjective choice.

The contexts of these passages are not explicitly about authority. Indeed, the target of submission is different in each of the four cases: the Father, God, God’s law, God’s righteousness through belief. Authority is not explicitly in view, though it is on the periphery.

Should we conclude by inductive inference that the word ‘submit’ implies authority? Or is it enough that authority is implied because the subject is in each case related to the one true God?

Notice how the word “obey” does not insert nicely here. While you may read people say that ‘submit’ means ‘obey authority’, you can see how unnatural that is when the passage itself is not explicitly about authority. This indicates, rather strongly, that the word ‘submit’ itself does not imply obedience to authority, but that the association with authority is external, not inherent in the word itself.

Regarding the two issues, we find this evidence to be inconclusive. While these passages are logically compatible with Grudem’s viewpoint, they are not evidence of it. As we noted above, Grudem’s statement requires that every single use of ‘submit’ must be conclusively associated with authority. Given this, Grudem’s statement is not sustainable.

Other Uses

We’ve now examined more than half of references (22 out of 38). Those we’ve seen so far are are topically or thematically related to each other. Most of the passages discussed authority explicitly even without considering whether the word ‘submit’ implied authority. To put it simply: ‘submit’ is, of course, associated with authority in these passages because the passages happen to be talking about authority. They can’t not be associated with authority, just as every other word—verbs, nouns, adjectives, pronouns, adverbs, etc.—used in these passages is ‘associated’ with authority. But now we move to the passages that more-or-less stand alone within their own specific contexts and those without any explicit reference to authority.

Keep in mind as you read these that Wayne Grudem sees no qualitative distinction between the following passages and the ones we’ve examined so far. To him,

this word (Greek hypotassø) in the New Testament is always used for submission to an authority.

Let’s see if you agree.

Romans 8:18-21

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected[1] to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one having subjected it[2], in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

[1] Aorist Active Passive
[2] Aorist Participle Active — Accusative Masculine Singular

We’ve finally come to passage where authority is not immediately obvious from the passage. A lot hinges on who “subjected” creation. Is it God? Is it Satan? Is it Adam? All three explanations have their defenders. It is not important that we answer which of the three is the correct (if any), only rather note that because all three are grammatically possible, authority cannot be either the sole or primary implication of submission.

Paul’s personification of nature is an obvious figure of speech. Creation, which was good when God created it, became decayed and fallen when Adam and Eve ate from the tree.  No one commanded nature to be fallen so that nature obeyed, it passively became fallen. It was a simple cause-and-effect.

Notably, because creation has no actual agency, the middle voice would have been impossible here. In English, it is universally translated using the passive voice. The only disagreement is whether the word “frustration,” “futility,” “vanity,” or “corruption” should be used. Creation was not subjected to authority. Creation may have been subjecting by authority, but that is a speculative inference.

“But,” you might say, “the will of the one doing the subjection must be an authority!”

To that I will use another word analogy, as we did with “afraid” above. Salvation by faith requires the authority of God, but salvation itself does not imply authority. One could, for example, be saved from a fire even though this has precisely nothing to do with authority. That salvation often involves authorities does not imply that the word salvation itself is about authority. As with salvation, we cannot assume that because ‘submission’ is used by someone with authority that the act of subjecting and being subjected is itself always about authority.

The fundamental question is whether or not the word can be used in cases where authority is not the focus. The answer is plainly “yes” in the case of both ‘submission’ and ‘salvation.’

There is a subtle equivocation that has been made. In the passage above, creation was not subjected to authority. But Grudem’s stance implies that wives are subjected to their husband’s authority because the word ‘submit’ was used. But that stance doesn’t work in this passage because the passage is about being subjected by an authority, not to an authority. But with regards to wives as we’ll see that—per Grudem—the middle voice implies that wives are not subjected by an authority, but rather to an authority (i.e. the husband; see: Titus 2:5). This is inconsistent and arbitrary.

This passage stands as positive evidence against Grudem’s claim.

1 Corinthians 16:15-16
13 Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be courageous; be strong. 14 Do everything in love. 15 You know that the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the service of the Lord’s people. I urge you, brothers and sisters, 16 to submit[1] to such people and to everyone who joins in the work and labors at it.

[1] Present Subjunctive Middle/Passive — 2nd Person Plural

There is a split among English translators here. Although many use the passive voice (as in the quote above), some, such as the KJV, use the middle voice in English:

That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with us, and laboureth.

This is really important because Paul is telling the church to submit, not to authorities, but to those who devote themselves to service. Paul is telling the church to submit to the servants. But Paul’s instructions do not end there. He tells the church to submit to anyone who chooses to join them in their work!

Men like Grudem have a big problem with verses like this. Paul is speaking to the men and women of the church. If Paul taught that only men could have authority, then how could Paul be telling the church—which includes men—to submit to those devoted to service—which includes women. The only way around this is to assume that Paul is only addressing men in this passage, not the whole church. But this is absurd, because Paul just got done telling the church to “Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be courageous; be strong. Do everything in love.” These are words plainly addressed to everyone in the church. Even Grudem’s translation, the ESV has a footnote on this:

a. 1 Corinthians 16:15 Or brothers and sisters; also verse 20

If ‘submit’ implies authority, as Grudem claims, then Paul must be telling men to submit to the female servants of Christ who joined the (male?) servants mentioned.

But, much more likely, is that this passage isn’t concerned with authority at all. It doesn’t mention authority. It talks about servants, not leaders. If Paul really did believe that women could not be in authority in the church, then it is logically impossible for ‘submit’ to be used in the context of authority here.

Luke 2:41-52
41 Every year Jesus’ parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover. 42 When he was twelve years old, they went up to the festival, according to the custom. 43 After the festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44 Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. 45 When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46 After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”

49 “Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”[f] 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

51 Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was subject[1] to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. 52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

[1] Present Participle Middle/Passive — Nominative Masculine Singular

I’ve already discussed this passage in Part 1 and Part 2. There I concluded that in the Luke 2:41-52 example, Jesus’ (supposed) obedience is explicitly contrasted with his (supposed) disobedience of his parent’s will. Whether this passage is about obedience to authority or not, it undermines Grudem’s positions either way.

If ‘submit’ means obedience to authority, then Jesus’ rightful disobedience implies that Jesus retained his higher authority even though he thereafter obeyed his parents. Thus, ‘submit’ cannot imply that the person submitting has lesser authority than the one doing the subjecting.

If ‘submit’ does mean obedience to authority, then Grudem’s claim that it always does is undermined.

Either way, this disproves Grudem’s stance.

Just as in 1 Corinthians 16:16, this highlights Jesus’ teaching that the servant is greater than the master. It completes the divine inversion of the expectations of human authority.

In any case, this passage is naturally translated in the middle voice in English:

Then he went down to Nazareth with them and deferred himself to them.

Jesus—in the flesh—never gave up the authority that he had received from his Father, but always acted in accordance with it. He may have freely chosen to submit himself to his disciples by washing their feet, or to the will of his parents, or to the judgment of the Sanhedrin, Pilate, and Herod, but he nonetheless retained all authority that was granted to him. Submitting to others did not change his rightful authority.

1 Corinthians 14:32-34
32 The spirits of prophets are subject[1] to the prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people. 34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but to be in submission[2], as the law says.

[1] Present Indicative Middle/Passive — 3rd Person Singular
[2] Present Imperative Middle/Passive — 3rd Person Plural

Is this about authority? If it is, it isn’t made explicit, but is an inferential determination from what isn’t said.

What is said? That the prophets submit to the prophets: that they submit to each other. There is a very strong sense here that if one prophet speaks, he must submit to all the others. And if another in the group speaks, he too must submit to all the others. There is no sense in which a specific group of prophets are submitting to a completely different and separate group of prophets in a permanent unidirectional hierarchy. Paul is not saying that prophets should submit to the Pope of Prophets! Moreover, the reason given for this submission is not authority, but order. This is the conclusion we have shown in this series.

Which ever way you interpret this, it invalidates Grudem’s stance. If this is about authority, then it constitutes a second biblical example of the mutual application of authority—alongside the husbands and wives having explicit mutual authority over their bodies. If this is not about authority, then it invalidates Grudem’s claim that the word ‘submit’ is always about authority.

But what about women being silent? Setting aside that the authenticity of this verse is contested, the issue is again not one of authority, but of order. Submission is explicitly associated with silence, so a lack of silence—not a lack of obedience—must be explicitly associated with a lack of submission. Claiming this is about obedience to authority is an inference based on what is not said.

As with the prophets, silence—and thus order—is achieved by submission, not by authority.

this word (Greek hypotassø) in the New Testament is always used for submission to an authority.

Do you still agree with Grudem?

In Part 6, we will discuss the remaining passages, all of which use ‘submit’ in the context of relationships: husbands and wives, masters and slaves, etc.

5 Comments

  1. professorGBFMtm

    ” it is good for husbands and wives to be humble, respectful, courteous, kind, loving, deferential, honoring, and understanding towards each other, aiming towards unity”

    How can Sharkly or Jack have a problem with that-do they think MOSES & JESUS do?

    the older version of GBFM from the 2010s,Samuel Solomon,Keoni Galt and Caldo want to address what Jack said here too in that talking about supposedly ”new trends” at least to Jack in the ‘sphere:

    ”Is Game or more precisely the term’s Koine Greek translation butthext Christian bros aka the cult of Jackianism(who believe and obey everything I say with holy and complete submission?”

    Samuel Solomon says:
    August 6, 2012 at 2:16 pm
    All men need to learn game- what attracts women and what repels them- because even if you believe in God and the bible, the woman will only stay if you have game, and will always leave if you don’t (or curse your life with misery) regardless of what the bible says they should do, and regardless of how strong there convictions are/were.

    A poor King will ALWAYS be overthrown.

    The bible actually offers instruction in this- Dominance/submission, but since it has been discarded, many Christian men, including myself, had to come to the Manosphere to learn what the churches will no longer teach you, even at the expense of untold suffering due to mutinous feminism.

    All the PUAs out there, in the end, teach Dominance. It works because women like it.

    Church boys have it the worst because they get scorn and shame now, for doing what the bible instructs. At least outside the church they can follow these precepts successfully. Can’t even describe my amazement and disgust for this fact.

    Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:
    August 6, 2012 at 2:21 pm
    Samuel Solomon writes,

    “A poor King will ALWAYS be overthrown.”

    So tell me Samuel Solomon, was Jesus Christ overthrown?

    Is that why “Christian” blogs are now advocating game, riches, and butthext so as to rule over fornicating, pre-butthexed, deosuled women?

    Cane Caldo says:
    August 6, 2012 at 2:29 pm
    @GBFM

    You are treading on my turf, here. Keep it up.

    Is that why “Christian” blogs are now advocating game, riches, and butthext to rule over fornicating, pre-butthexed, deosuled women?

    Or, as Paul said in 2 Timothy 3:

    But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. 9 But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.

    Keoni Galt says:
    August 6, 2012 at 2:32 pm
    “Is that why “Christian” blogs are now advocating game, riches, and butthext so as to rule over fornicating, pre-butthexed, deosuled women?”

    Nah….real advocacy of game tells men they must be very discerning of mate selection, to learn how to recognize if a potential wife is a good bet to make a “’til death do us part” vow with, or if she’s already been butthexed and desouled. If she has, avoid one-itis and NEXT her.

    Plenty of fish…don’t settle for the born again bernankified harlots

    lozlzolzol

    Cane Caldo says:
    August 6, 2012 at 2:43 pm
    Nah….real advocacy of game…

    Really? While I think that can be gleaned, real Game cannot and should not be separated from its truth as presented by its real apostles: Roissy, Mystery, Krauser, etc. Game is man’s wisdom of male/female relations based in a nonsense evo-psych frame. Christian Order and Authority is based on Christ and His revelation. Demons know the truth, for sure. That does not mean we ought to look to them for guidance.

    Romans 3:8

    8 And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

    Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:
    August 6, 2012 at 2:47 pm
    hey keoni,

    why should i have to “game” someone into being my “good christian” wife?

    why can’t she just be a good christian on her own, without lotastat socockas cravings in her buttholiolozlz?

    why should i have to learn
    the art
    of sodomy and butthext
    just so i can risk
    having a butthexted woman
    take half my assetts
    if i forget one night
    to butthetx her ass
    as game
    demands?

    zlzolzlz

    Cane Caldo says:
    August 6, 2012 at 2:48 pm
    @KG

    Nah….real advocacy of game…

    As espoused by Roissy, Krauser, Mystery, etc. that isn’t true. You’re picking and choosing what you want to hear. You left out they believe that these women deserve to be treated as pleasure toys.

    Try to make a biblical case for that. GBFM is absolutely right.

    Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:
    August 6, 2012 at 2:53 pm
    Exactly Caldo!

    @KG

    Nah….real advocacy of game…

    KG thinks that you can just putt you c@ck in halfway to test the watrez lzozozlzo
    and it isn’t butthext
    if nobody seess iztz lzozozoz

    KG is forgettng dat game blogs do not teach marriage
    they teach GAME
    they tearch the art of buttf@cking someone’s future portential wife
    which appeals to KG
    more than the teaching of JESUS

    on this blog JESUS is conidered a “poor king,” and thus he must be overthrown to make way
    for buttc@ckerz zlzozloz”

    I hope that clears up …

    The ”Is Game or more precisely the term’s Koine Greek translation butthext Christian, bros aka the cult of Jackianism(who believe and obey everything I say with holy and complete submission?” question.

    For our friend Jack.

    1. Derek L. Ramsey

      “How can Sharkly or Jack have a problem with that-do they think MOSES & JESUS do?”

      That’s easy to explain. My statement…

      “it is good for husbands and wives to be humble, respectful, courteous, kind, loving, deferential, honoring, and understanding towards each other, aiming towards unity”

      …implies that submission is a general virtue, just like patience, kindness, service, joy, meekness, gratefulness, honor, faith, hope, love, purity, truthfulness, contentment, endurance, godliness, gentleness, prudence, goodness, devoutness, reasonableness, mercy, tenderness, humility, respectfulness, obedience, strength, pleasantness, commendability, worthiness, self-control, affection, etc.

      They don’t believe that submission is a virtue that all wise Christians strive to do, like all those things above. They believe it is a command. But Paul lists submission along with other virtues!

      Submission is part of one’s godly service, along with all the other virtues.

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